John Cooper wrote:

I just love to have a fight on my hands

This came in yesterday now who believes/disbelieves they are/are not a Crown Servant

Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 07:59:04 +0100 (BST)
From: "JOHN COOPER"
Subject: Re: Pingat Jasa Malaysia
To: Abby.Oshodi@cabinet-office.x.gsi.gov.uk

Abby.Oshodi@cabinet-office.x.gsi.gov.uk wrote:
Dear Mr Cooper
Thank you for your email of 16 April regarding the announcement in the London Gazette of 3May 1968 and your interpretation of that statement to the Pingat Jasa Malaysia.
I must inform you that the conclusion you have drawn from reading this article is incorrect. The announcement, as it states, applies to UK citizens who are not servants of the Crown.
You and your colleagues, who bravely served in Her Majesty's Armed Forces during the Malaya conflict, were doing so as Crown servants. Although you are now retired from this service the definition of Crown servant still applies to this service. Indeed this was re-confirmed following the 1968 London Gazette announcement, in the FCO Regulations concerning Acceptance and Wear (Section A, Paragraph 14) as produced in 1969 namely:
14. Persons who have retired from the service of the Crown remain subject to these Regulations in so far as concerns the acceptance of Orders, decorations or medals offered in respect of services rendered before their retirement.
Therefore the HD Committee's final decision on the Pingat Jasa Malaysia remains applicable to you and your former colleagues. Abby Oshodi
Ceremonial Secretariat
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Hi Abby
I am in receipt of your email, I have been waiting for an official reply from HMG over this matter.

For your information I am not a Crown Servant and have not been a Servant of The Crown for many years, I therefore ask you to withdraw that remark.

If you feel that I am a Crown Servant still or since I left The Royal Air Force please inform me of what regulation this refers to and promulgated by whom.

John Cooper
(The holder and legally intitled wearer of The Pingat Jasa Malaysia ref The London Gazette May 3rd 1968)

Exellent reply John,

If veterans with over five years previous service in HM Armed Forces are classed by the Cabinet office to still be in service of the crown, why were are they not intitled to The Queens Golden Jubilee Medal 2003?

Richard Coney [Honours 1 MOD] informed me once he was sick sore and tired having to reply to veterans, with 25 to 30 years service who had left HM Armed Forces only days and weeks before the QGJM was instituted that they were not intitled to the QGJM because they had
CEASED TO BE EMPLOYED IN THE SERVICE OF THE CROWN.

Surely HMG cannot have it both ways can they?

I am informed by Moira Thompson 020 7276 2728 that (SHE) Abby Oshodi has taken on some of Denis Brennan's work.
It seems that Denis alias The Thrush is overworked and needs help in dealing with us Veterans or is he passing the buck for when the brown stuff hits the fan so that he comes up smelling of roses.
Wasn't me GUV its Abby's fault.

Perhaps she should be warned to keep checking her fan to make sure its not getting clogged.
Abby.Oshodi@cabinet-office.x.gsi.gov.uk

John Cooper wrote:

I just wanted something in writing addressed to me from HMG to myself over this issue, because if I am still a Crown Servant then I am much better off financially than I thought.

Thanks John,

I wonder is it possible for veterans who are not employees of HMG after they leave HM forces to apply for a legal letter to confirm they are not servants of the Crown?

I was thinking more along the lines of European Citizenship and human rights. http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/citizenship/fsj_citizenship_intro_en.htm

The suits at whitehall more so those who work in the cabinet office believe they are a law unto themselves. Living in a country without a written constitution these suits get away with all sorts of nasty little tricks.

I find it rather odd that the Ceremonial Secretariat are putting forward a totally different definition of either "In Crown Service" or "In the Service of the Crown" to the one indicated by a sensible interpretation of natural english.

The Oxford English Reference Dictionary defines "the Crown" as being a the monarch, esp. as head of state. b the power or authority residing in the monarchy.

Taken to the next logical step, other than boasting the normal patriotic loyalty to The Crown, one is most definitely NOT in the service of The Crown.

I would suggest that "......I remain, Your Majesty, your most humble servant" at the end of a letter should not be interpreted in any other way than ".....I remain, Your Majesty, your most humble subject".

There is a subtle difference there, and one that should not be missed or ignored by civil servants just because it suits them.

To summarize - I don't give a pig's burp what they say, Her Majesty says I may wear it, and WEAR IT I SHALL.


_________________
Veni vidi vinci

Still they turn out the the bovine excerment. This is my reply from them when I told them that I have not worked for the crown since 1967




Dear Mr Birchall
Thank you for your email of 4 May regarding the announcement in the London Gazette of 3 May 1968 and your interpretation of that statement to the Pingat Jasa Malaysia.

I must inform you that the conclusion you have drawn from reading this article is incorrect. The announcement, as it states applies to UK citizens who are not servants of the Crown.

You and your colleagues, who bravely served in Her Majesty's Armed Forces during the Malaya conflict, were doing so as Crown servants. Although you are now retired from this service the definition of Crown servant still applies to this service. Indeed this was re-confirmed following the 1968 London Gazette announcement, in the FCO Regulations concerning Acceptance and Wear (Section A, Paragraph 14) as produced in 1969 namely:

14. Persons who have retired from the service of the Crown remain subject to these Regulations in so far as concerns the acceptance of Orders, decorations or medals offered in respect of services rendered before their retirement.

Therefore the HD Committee's final decison on the Pingat Jasa Malaysia remains applicable to you and your former colleagues.

Yours sincerely

Ms Abby Oshodi
Deputy Team Leader
Ceremonial Secretariat

Received an email from Abby Oshodi who seems to have taken the huff and says they have nothing further to add to the statements already made.

They are lying about Section 14 being applicable to the PJM and they know it. The part of the 1969 regulations they are quoting refers quite clearly to 'Regulations concerning the Acceptance and Wearing by Persons in the Service of the Crown' and Section 14 refers to 'in so far as concerns the acceptance of Orders' The LG also states 'not being servants of the Crown' and not what they say.

It is sheer ludicrousy for so called intelligent members of the civil service, or bureauprats as they are known throughout the world, to use such juvenile and childish arguments which will come back to haunt them.

Seem like Abby Oshodi has been given the poisoned chalice whilst Brengun the Thrush sits back in his £1000 chair and publicly funded affluent lifestyle waiting for his honour from the club.

Keep moving the goalposts, they already have scored a few own goals a few more won't matter, keep chalking them up lads, the egg is on their faces!


_________________
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HD Committee: Amateurs in a Professional World
---------------------------------------------------------------

AS THE THRUSHES REPLACEMENT SEEMS TO HAVE SWOLLOWED THE B/S**T PILL WHOLE,TIME FOR A HANDLE FOR THIS GOBBLEGOOK CHALLENGED WAZOK.

These civil serpents are not expected to have a mind of their own. Just like a kid in a third eleven cricket team Abby Oshodi is merely fielding at long-stop.

MB


_________________
Mike Barton

This has just gone off - Barry did say we could distribute it didney!

An answer that was sent to a friend of mine.

>Thank you for your email of 4 May 2007.
>
>I can confirm that the London Gazette announcement of 3 May 1968 did
>not apply to campaign or commemorative medals.
>
>Your sincerely
>
>Ms Abby Oshodi
>Deputy Team Leader
>Ceremonial Secretariat

They are making it up as they go along, by the way the person this was sent too never served in the forces and he did inform the suits of this. (Was never a Crown Servant)
There are some civies who are entitled to the PJM, St Johns & NAAFI to name just two.
>

Just in................Here you go.........my highlighting!

Subject: Crown Servant
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:38:09 +0100
From: "Marchant, Norman Mr" <Norman.Marchant806@mod.uk> Add to Address Book
To:


Dear Mr Cooper



Thank you for your enquiry about Crown Service which you directed to my colleagues in the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency. Your message has been passed to the Veterans Policy Unit of the Ministry of Defence and I have been asked to respond.



The most concise definition of Crown service I have been able to find is on the HM Revenue & Customs website. It states :-



Generally speaking Crown servants are employees whose-



· Offices or employments are carried out under the Crown,

· Duties of employment are of a public nature, and,

· Salaries are paid out of the public funds of the UK or Northern Ireland.



Examples of offices or employments under the Crown are:



· HM Armed Forces

· Civil Servants

· Diplomats



Using these criteria, whilst you were serving in HM Armed Forces you were considered to be a Crown servant. My understanding is that the definition would cease on your leaving the Forces.



However, when members of the regular Forces leave the Service, they may be liable – for a set number of years – to be called out if they are needed to man or support an operation. During any period of recall, you would again be considered as being in Crown service.



Of course, even after leaving the Forces, you continue to be subject to the provisions of the Official Secrets Act covering any information, document or article which you had or have in your possession by virtue of your Crown service.



If you are unsure whether any subsequent employment you may have had qualifies as Crown service, you should contact HM Revenue & Customs direct.



I hope that this helpful.





Norman Marchant

DS Sec VPU Vets-Proj5

Ministry of Defence

Level 7, Zone I

Main Building

Whitehall

London SW1A 2HB

norman.marchant806@mod.uk


_________________
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HD Committee: Amateurs in a Professional World
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LOOKS LIKE SHARING THE EYE AS MACBETHS WITCHES DID,RESULTS IN LOTS OF SNATCHING IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS,WITH ONLY ONE PERSON AT A TIME HAVING A VIEW,WHICH THEN HAS A DIFFERENT VIEW AS ITS PASSED AROUND,ME CROWN SERVANT,SUBJECT TO RECALL BOUT AS LIKELY AS A PLANE CRASHING ON MY TRAIN WHEN I'M ON THE WAY TO COLLECT MY LOTTERY WINNINGS.

I have also just received the same email from Norman Marchant at the MOD. It's official - I am no longer a crown servant.