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ro5=6372
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 1763
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TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN,YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO FAR ON THIS WEBSITE TO APPRECIATE,THAT TODAYS VETERANS,GIVE THEIR TOTAL SUPPORT AND APPRECIATION,TO OUR SERVICE PEOPLE OF TODAY,IN VERY DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES ,IN A WAR THAT IS DEEMED UNPOPULAR.WE SHOULD SHARE A COMMON BOND, OUR SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY,WHICH THO FAR FROM PERFECT,ATTRACTS LOTS OF FOREIGNERS, ON THE BASIS OF FREEDOMS AND EQUALITY.WE ALL HAVE OUR PLACE AND TIME IN HISTORY,WHICH IS NOT OF OUR CHOICE. OVER 1,500,000 ARTILLERY ROUNDS WHERE FIRED ON THE SOMME FRONT FROM 24 JUNE 1916-1 JULY 1916,,THE RESULT OF THIS ON ONE DAY 1st JULY 1916 WAS 60,000 BRITISH CASUALTIES 20,000 FATAL! MAY I SUGGEST THAT WARS HAVE MANY FACETS,SOME DROP NUCLEAR WEAPONS,SOME ATTACK INNOCENT CIVILIANS(NO MEDALS THERE CHUM),SOME FIRE LOTS OF BULLETS IN THE GENERAL DIRECTION OF THE ENEMY ,AND THE WAR CONTINUES,AND SOME OUR WON BY A DIFFERENT APPROACH LIKE 'HEARTS AND MINDS'.HOW DO YOU GAUGE VICTORY,NOTCHES ON YOUR RIFLE BUTT?MORE OPPO'S THAN YOU IN A GRAVEYARD? MAY I BE SO BOLD AS TO SUGGEST A LASTING PEACE,SECURITY,EDUCATION FOR CHILDREN,HEALTH,THE FAMILY,THE RULE OF LAW? WE ARE A MINORITY,DON'T PAN US,IF MINORITIES CEASE TO EXIST,THATS WHEN WE ALL GO TO FOOTBALL ON SATURDAYS NO ONE HEAR IS GONG CHASING ANYTHING,THIS WAS OFFERED GRATIS RIGHT,JUST IN CASE THERE IS A PROBLEM SKETCHING AND DESCRIBING A GAITER,I'LL REPEAT 'OFFERED GRATIS' BY A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT.ACCECPTED BY OTHER NATIONS INVOLVED IN THE SAME CONFLICT,LIKE AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND,NO PROBLEM AT ALL, IT IS ONLY BECAUSE OF THIS SITE THAT FLAWED DECISION WAS REVERSED,BUT STILL THE KNIFE HAD TO BE TURNED,BY NOT GIVING US THE RIGHT TO WEAR,LIKE OUR OPPO'S,THATS IT.MAY I ALSO SUGGEST,THAT AS A RECENTLY RETIRED ,AND THEREFORE X SERVICE ,YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO LEARN ABOUT LIFE,JUST WAIT IF YOUR HEALTH SUFFERS,YOU WILL THEN FIND YOUR FORMER EMPLOYER,REALLY DOES NOT GIVE A TOSS,THERE ARE YOUNG LADS OUT THERE WHO HAVE SERVED HAVING TO PAY FOR MEDICATION FOR THEIR INJURIES,ALSO SOMTIME IN THE FUTURE,WHEN LIFE'S EXPERICENCES TEND TO MAKE YOU CYNICAL,BUT YOU RETAIN YOUR SENSE OF HUMOUR ,AND YOU AGE, YOU WON'T BE SO ROBUST,IN FACT YOU'LL PROBABLY QUESTION WHY YOU EVER BOTHERED IN THE FIRST PLACE,THEN AS YOU HAVE SO MANY MEDALS ,AND ANOTHER COUNTRY WANTS TO HONOUR THAT SERVICE,YOU TO CAN JOIN THE RANKS OF THOSE ,DISENCHANTED GONG HUNTERS,AND EXPERIENCE HOW HELPFUL ALL THE GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS WILL BE,AND THEN YOUNG SIR,YOU WILL BE A VETERAN TOO!
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:29 am |
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Tom
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 6
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Re, re BLING, OTHER MEDALS AND THE FIGHT FOR THE PJM
Dear Veterans,
My post was not meant to offend anyone, least of all the real veterans who fill your ranks. My Comments were entirely directed at those very few amongst you who have never even heard the “odd angry shot" and use every means possible to get themselves medals so that they can the can bask in the reflected glory of the genuine veterans who served so gallantly in our savage wars of peace. The person whom my uncle told me about was included to illustrate this and if have offended this individual then I humbly apologise for doing so. I am fairly certain that my uncle didn’t fabricate this tale so if the individual concerned sees this and then perhaps he will contact me direct and I will put him in touch with my “Mick” uncle.
I have utmost respect for those of you who fought in Britain’s Small Wars, the daring do of the Queens Own Highlanders in the relief of Seria, the bravery of the Marines who assaulted Limbang, the Royal Northumberland Fusilier’s in Crater, people like L/Cpl Rambahadur Limbu VC, CSM “Patch” Williams DCM Para, Major Dennis O’Leary MM and Bar 1/7 Ghurkha Rifles all have my utmost respect as has Trooper LLaballa SAS, who should have received the VC for Mirbat and Brigadier Ian Gardener RM who fought so gallantly on the Hornbeam line in Dhofar with his beloved Dhofaris.
My inclusion of the item about our current warriors was not designed to belittle them, you or anyone else but was given merely to add a new perspective to the issue and to illustrate what our current round of warriors are going through. I would commend you to find a copy of last months dispatches from Channel 4 and just look at the faces of men like Captain Doug Beattie MM or the RAMC Corporal at the Battle of Garminsar, see the thousand yard stare and then look inward at your own exploits. I am sure you will be humbled.
I do fully support you, and incidentally my uncle, in your Fight for the PJM; it is those who jump on yours and all similar band wagons whom I dislike. I can assure you that we whippersnappers have met similar conmen who are now attempting to jump on the Op Herrick and Op Telic bandwagons. Pubs in our market towns are full of them on a Friday nights.
I stand by my comments on the way some of you conduct the fight for the PJM, dignity and decorum are your best weapons in this war of the “running dogs”.
So please if I have offended any of you accept my sincere apologies and forgive me. Perhaps I do reallyl visit Combat Stress and unburden my soul after all.
Faugh a Ballagh
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:52 am |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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Links
Pete,
You mention the days leading up to the 1916 Battle of the Somme.
There was a film on the tele the other night "The Trench". It is the (fictional) story of a group of soldiers in their trench in the 24 hours before going over the top on 1st July 1916. It's not a great film but it is of interest and relevant to this discussion because:
1. They are Royal Fusiliers.
2. Now ... I hope readers who saw the film spotted a Fleming lurking in the title stills! No?? Well, here he is. A soldier of 12th (Service) Battalion Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment). His name is Harry and he is (was - dead now) my dad.
He could tell you a thing or two about Risk and Rigour, but he never spoke about it. But he knew. That's what mattered.
Oh yes, he's the one standing on the left, grinning.
(This image is copyright IWM reference Q2315)
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:52 am |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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Re: Re, re BLING, OTHER MEDALS AND THE FIGHT FOR THE PJM
Tom wrote:I stand by my comments on the way some of you conduct the fight for the PJM, dignity and decorum are your best weapons in this war of the “running dogs”.
So please if I have offended any of you accept my sincere apologies and forgive me. Perhaps I do reallyl visit Combat Stress and unburden my soul after all.
There is not a problem here, Tom. You stand by your comments - but please do not make them personal.
Others, I can assure you, will stand by theirs.
Stay awhile ... it's great for combatting stress.
And thank you for your support. It means a lot to everyone involved, particularly the widows and families of those who died.
Barry
PS Your signature ... are you into Horses or the Royal Irish Fusiliers? Or do you just want to "Clear the way!" You will know, I am sure, that General Templer was Colonel of the RIF and it was he who established the Hearts and Minds and "protect life rather than take it" strategy in Malaysia. His was a highly successful policy that is so much admired by Malaysians (and by the men under his command). It is for no little reason that the HQ of the Intelligence Corps was called, until it relocated, "Templer Barracks". It's a small world.
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:08 pm |
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ro5=6372
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 1763
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YOU MUST BE VERY PROUD OF HIM,MY GRANDAD WAS/IS STILL MY HERO,I STILL HAVE HIS CHEST X-RAY,SHOWING FULL FRONT CHEST AND SIDE,WITH A VIVID WHITE BALL NEXT TO HIS HEART. YOU CAN SEE SUCH A LOT IN THE PHOTO,THAT SANDBAGGED TRENCH MUST HAVE WON PRIZES! THEY LOOK PRETTY RELAXED,PROBABLY GLAD TO BE ALIVE,CAN'T SEE ANY RIFLES,BUT I THINK THE PETROL/WATERCAN,AND SMOKE,SUGGESTS ITS TEA AND WADS .OH MAY I JUST ADD ,THAT NO MATTER HOW MANY MEDALS YOU HAVE,IF YOU ARE X SERVICE,YOU AIN'T A VETERAN,AS PER THE QUALIFYING CRITERIA UNLESS YOU HAVE SERVED PRIOR TO 1969,SO THATS RULES AIN'T IT ,AS SHOWN ON VETERANS AGENCY WEBSITE ENJOY
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:09 pm |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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ro5=6372 wrote:CAN'T SEE ANY RIFLES,BUT I THINK THE PETROL/WATERCAN,AND SMOKE,SUGGESTS ITS TEA AND WADS .
Some weapons are on the right of the piccie. There is a .303 (butt towards camera) resting, magazine up, near on the right of the opened wooden box and next to webbing with bayonet scabbards visible.
But the interesting (?) point of this piccie is that, while used in a film about a battle in France in 1916, it was actually taken in a captured German trench, “Old French Trench” near Ypres, and the men are having a brew after the first few days of the Battle of Messines. The image is dated 11 June 1917.
So wrong country, wrong year, as afar as the film is concerned. But great for the Fleming family who have an original 1917 newspaper where this piccie appears on the front page ... which is how I spotted the still in the film. The still was not expected, and it was a bit if a shock to see my dad suddenly appear on the tele in our sitting room years after his death, and some 90 years after the photograph was taken, bless him.
Barry
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:28 pm |
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Kentsboro
Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Hampshire
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Trench Photo
Barry - any idea what the 'tube' is behind the soldier in the foreground - is it a mortar ? Tony
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:26 pm |
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ro5=6372
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 1763
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AHA,NOW I KNOW WHERE U GET YOUR BLACK CURLY HAIR FROM
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:55 pm |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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Re: Trench Photo
Kentsboro wrote:Barry - any idea what the 'tube' is behind the soldier in the foreground - is it a mortar ? Tony
Can't be sure, Tony, but it looks like one.
Here's another shot of those Royal Fusilers (and many East Surreys) in the captured German trench three days into the Battle of Messines (it is copyright IWM reference Q2821). Harry is in this one, too. In thback row, 3rd from right, facing camera with black hair showing below his tin hat.
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:57 pm |
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KJF
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 36
Location: South Carolina. USA
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Tom, Barry, Jock, Admin, Et Al.
Tom makes several good points but I feel I would like to point out that like most generations of service men and women we defend our own era. Rightly so, and we of course continue to support and defend those in uniform today!
In regards to the'jumping on the Bandwagon' etc and being awarded a medal for doing nothing except perhaps fighting for position in the NAAFI que, I think needs a bit more comparison and clarification.
It is and was the government of Malaysia who has the right to set the terms (dates) for our PJM and we cannot be faulted for our place of service or the job that we had at the time. Should a clerk be excluded because he did not set foot in an armoured vehicle or go out on foot patrol? Some didn't..
We must also remember Tom that the cooling off period was just that and very little or no action took place during this time, as is the norm in these situations, but the problems could have flared up again at any moment. However the Malay government in their wisdom, felt that we should be recognised up to a point where with a reasonable amount of certainty, military action was no longer in the offing.
Should we therefore have refused this medal as individuals because of our staionlocation or as Squadrons or units?
The UN medal for Cyprus, (another of my medals) for my time on the island in 1979 never involved firing a shot, but I did stop two small combine harversters (one Grek, one Turkish) from jousting in the Ormaphita fields outside of Nicosia!
Should I and thousands before and since refuse to take and wear this medal, after all, it wasn't as cold, damp and arduous as the Balkans under UNPROFOR.
Then of course we have the Falkland Islands "South Atlantic medal" 1982 and that medal. A Rose on the ribbon signifies combat and everybody else just gets, A medal!!
The medals I have mentioned are but a couple that we could look at and find fault with (if you wish to), as some are issued for just being observers in certain areas.
But again some are issued for your contribution to furthing a cause and some are for Bravery. Distinctive differences!
However, the PJM covers both.
We are all proud to have been part of this fight to stabilize the Malaysian territories and I am thankful to the work of the staff of this site and to Mr Barry Fleming (to mention but one) for bringing us together and trying to right what is obviously a poor decision by our sitting government.
Perhaps subsequent governments will also take note and learn from this collossal ministerial Clusterf***..
Keith
_________________ JLR. RAC 64-66.
Served in The Life Guards. June 66-83
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:08 pm |
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scouserkev
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 41
Location: guess!
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KJF wrote:Perhaps subsequent governments will also take note and learn from this collossal ministerial Clusterf***..
A courteous and balanced message, Keith. Thanks for posting it.
I've been sitting here watching somebody try and wind up some good people who are only doing their best for us veterans.
I think he chose the wrong targets! They've been fighting tougher cookies for two years now and one day they will pull off a victory. I'd like to reiterate your acknowledgment to those leading this campaign.
Kev
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:32 pm |
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'Jock' Fenton
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1222
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Wanna Fight?
Should anyone be in any personal doubt as to where the fight lies....and to whom we should be carrying it....a PM directed to any member of the Fight4 'team' will bring forth a plethora of lobbying ideas and suitable addresses.
There are, I'm told, a lot of lonely MP's and Members of the HD Committee out there boys....all just aching to hear from the veterans that they so eagerly associate themselves with on Veterans Day (just so long as a media camera or microphone is within range)....Her Majesty too is always, we are advised, receptive to communications from those of us who 'took the Queens Shilling'.
Instead of indulging in unproductive petty bickering such as occurs on other Forums (which shall remain nameless), let us instead concentrate our efforts and literary talents, toward the vital and necessary work of pressing our case with those who have control of the mechanisms of change.
Who was it that said: 'United we Stand'?
_________________ ...................'Jock'
Paroi...Rasah...Batu Signals Troop.
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:58 pm |
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Mrs I McKenzie
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1
Location: Scotland
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I was motivated to write to the BBC today having seen certain people being negative about some veterans. I did not agree with that man was implying in certain parts of his letter and so thought the best response to what he wrote was to write my own email which is my first.
Thank you for campaigning for British veterans,
I McKenzie (Mrs)
Dear Julian Clegg and Jo Palmer,
I write to register my vote for the campaign for the right to wear the PJM. My late husband would have been entitled to the PJM and I am ashamed of this government for denying me or my children permission to wear his medal with honour. Good luck with your petition and thank you for your support for this campaign that has at all times acted with dignity and in the best interests of British veterans, unlike certain civil servants.
I McKenzie (Mrs)
Name and address supplied
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:12 pm |
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'Jock' Fenton
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1222
Location: Ontario, Canada
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.....and THAT, Mrs McKenzie is what I would consider to be an intelligent and thoughtful response!
We thank you for your post and for your support of our cause...we are delighted to have you 'on board' and appreciate your comments.
Regards.....(don't be a stranger!)
_________________ ...................'Jock'
Paroi...Rasah...Batu Signals Troop.
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:38 pm |
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AS365
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 1
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"Bling" Medals etc.
May I state, before proceeding further, that I have been an avid reader of this website ever since it was brought to my attention some months ago, by a much revered veteran of the last war, WWII.
May I also say that I wholeheartily and unreservedly support your aims and your cause. For a government to allow its citizens to accept an award and then in the next breath say they cannot wear it, is totally incomprehensible.
He and I share the same bewilderment and like me, he heartily supports your cause. We have both given our enthusiastic support outside the confines of this website, and, we believe, with considerable success.
I have, until today, sat quietly in the background and watched with interest how your admirable campaign is progressing. Sadly, on many occasions in the past, I have been forced to shake my head in disbelieve at the manner in which the campaign is being conducted. Not, I hasten to add, in its concept, but by the lack of any dignity and civility shown by some contributors. It is at times quite difficult to translate their vehemence into anything relevant. As one example, one often wonders what, for example are attacks on the police force to do with anything with the matter in hand?
The constant use of very thinly veiled foul language does not enamour anyone. If I can access your site and check your progress, do you not think the "enemy" can do the same? Gentlemen, at the risk of sounding incredibly patronising, you do yourselves no favours whatever if you offer such ammunition to your opponents.
Thank you for letting me post my opinion, and thank you for reading it. Good luck with the rest of your admirable campaign, and we wish you nothing but success.
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Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:02 pm |
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