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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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Strange isn't it that someone from Twiggs own Department in The MoD informs me according to his interpretation that me being a Crown servant ceased when my contract was terminated.
Looks to me that they butter the bread both sides, don't they look absolute tw*ts in the eyes of the world they are a laughing stock to themselves. I recall Brennan writing to me saying I was discourteous to him as he had egg on his face and that he needn't reply, the man is above his station and is obviously more pompous than his title suggests
ggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:08 pm |
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MB_Veteran
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 82
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How come this 1969 quote was not published in the London Gazette?
http://upload9.postimage.org/356006/photo_hosting.html
and if this be true why has the MOD contracticted themselves regards: "Wearing of medals after leaving the Service" 2006DIN10-002 dated Jan 06
21. On leaving the Service personnel cease to be bound by these instructions but they are expected to conform to the general instructions published in the London Gazette and in particular not to add any order, decoration, medal or emblem to which they are not verifiably entitled or which has not been approved for acceptance and wear. The wearing of unauthorised awards is a grave discourtesy to Her Majesty The Queen.
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=35737.html
Surely if ex-servicemen are still considered to be classed as in service of the crown the above quote is total nonsense.
On the other hand if ex servicemen are not classed as being in service of the crown the above MOD quote makes sense and confirms the FCO 1998 London Gazettte publication on the acceptance and wearing OFFICIAL AND AUTHORISED Foreign medals by The Queen.
As a veteran who has not been in service of the crown since 25 December 1968 my interpretation of the quote "The wearing of unauthorised awards is a grave discourtesy to Her Majesty The Queen.~" refers to purchased UNOFFICIAL COMMEMORATIVES worn on the left breast alongside OFFICIAL MEDALS. The Pingat Jasa Malaysia (Malaysian Service Medal) is an OFFICIAL MEDAL.
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Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:23 am |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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Isn't it a little odd that SUDDENLY there is this activity of diatribe from the suits regarding 'our misinterpretation' of The LG statement that was found 4 months ago. It would appear that the CO and FCO have now cohered in their statements!
I haven't posted this before, please read the emails in reverse:
Subject: RE: Archive Query
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:08:16 +0100
From: "TSO Gazette - London" <gazette.london@tso.co.uk> Add to Address Book
To: "JOHN COOPER"
At the moment the answer to your question would be difficult to answer, as the current online archive is frankly rubbish at doing specific searches, however the site is due to be replaced shortly with a better site, that will allow the user to carry out the type of search you are after. The only other viable option would be to try the national archives in kew, as they do keep substantial records on file and may be able to assist you. You can contact them via their website at the following link.
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
London Gazette
-----Original Message-----
From: JOHN COOPER Sent: 05 July 2007 16:45
To: TSO Gazette - London
Subject: RE: Archive Query
Dear Sir/Madam
Thank you so much for your reply.
The article I am referring to dates from TLG 3rd May 1968 where it states
'Eligible recipients of a Foreign Award (Medal) that the Queen has approved for acceptance may wear their award at all times' or words to that effect, as I do not have the article in front of me. I wondered if that noticed had ever been rescinded by appearing in a later edition of TLG or whether it would need to appear if Her Majesty had decided otherwise.
Thank you for your help
Yours sincerely
John Cooper
TSO Gazette - London <gazette.london@tso.co.uk> wrote:
It depends what you are referring to!!! When legal notices are placed in the london gazette, they are normally deemed to be cast in stone, which is why some notices like partnerships dissolving which need not be placed in the gazette are placed in there, so in effect the customer is safe guarding themselves!!
London Gazette
-----Original Message-----
From: JOHN COOPER
Sent: 25 June 2007 14:52
To: TSO Gazette - London
Subject: Archive Query
Sirs
Good afternoon, I am undertaking some research.
Can you please inform me that if a notice has been placed in The Gazette does that item become law and can that item be overturned without further notice being applied in The Gazette?
Thank you for your time
Yours sincerely
John Cooper
Ipswich
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Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:43 am |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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.........oh and don't forget this one........
Subject: Crown Servant
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:38:09 +0100
From: "Marchant, Norman Mr" <Norman.Marchant806@mod.uk>
Dear Mr Cooper
Thank you for your enquiry about Crown Service which you directed to my colleagues in the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency. Your message has been passed to the Veterans Policy Unit of the Ministry of Defence and I have been asked to respond.
The most concise definition of Crown service I have been able to find is on the HM Revenue & Customs website. It states :-
Generally speaking Crown servants are employees whose-
· Offices or employments are carried out under the Crown,
· Duties of employment are of a public nature, and,
· Salaries are paid out of the public funds of the UK or Northern Ireland.
Examples of offices or employments under the Crown are:
· HM Armed Forces
· Civil Servants
· Diplomats
Using these criteria, whilst you were serving in HM Armed Forces you were considered to be a Crown servant. My understanding is that the definition would cease on your leaving the Forces.
However, when members of the regular Forces leave the Service, they may be liable – for a set number of years – to be called out if they are needed to man or support an operation. During any period of recall, you would again be considered as being in Crown service.
Of course, even after leaving the Forces, you continue to be subject to the provisions of the Official Secrets Act covering any information, document or article which you had or have in your possession by virtue of your Crown service.
If you are unsure whether any subsequent employment you may have had qualifies as Crown service, you should contact HM Revenue & Customs direct.
I hope that this helpful.
Norman Marchant
DS Sec VPU Vets-Proj5
Ministry of Defence
Level 7, Zone I
Main Building
Whitehall
London SW1A 2HB
norman.marchant806@mod.uk
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HD Committee: Amateurs in a Professional World
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Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:48 am |
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MB_Veteran
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 82
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Thanks John,
This is the nonsensical load of balderdash the Cabinet Office is trying to convince me and other veterans we should believe.
No1) When we attend a remembrance day parade just wearing official British medals we are no longer in the service of the Crown.
No2) Once we take our official Foreign PJM Medal out of its box and pin it up alongside our British medals as approved to wear by the 1968 London Gazette.
Hey presto we are all back in the service of the Crown. What a load of Bollixxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
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Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:29 am |
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MB_Veteran
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 82
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John Cooper wrote:.
Examples of offices or employments under the Crown are:
· HM Armed Forces
· Civil Servants
· Diplomats
What does the word ex-service mean if it does not mean "no longer in service of the Crown" ?????????????????
How as an ex-serviceman I all of a sudden become an in-serviceman just by wearing the PJM medal alongside my British medals on remembrance day?????? I wonder will The Queen be insulted when 50 members of NMBVA parade past her at Whitehall sporting their PJM medals this November???????
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Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:12 pm |
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GLOman
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 668
Location: Northamptonshire
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Golden Jubilee
So, we're medal chasers are we? Right then! JSP761, para 12 - Golden Jubilee Medal:
"To be eligible personnel must have been in service on 6 February 2006; have been commissioned or enlisted prior to 7 February 1997 and have completed five full years service on 6 February 2002."
According to Brennan, Coney , Eleri and Abby et al we were serving as Crown Servants in Malaysia and that term still applies, therefore we must be eligible for the medal: a) it is not a foreign medal b) it it not double medalling (although it is now over the five year limit) and, according to the suits (and posh dresses?) we are still crown servants so presumably still "in service". I personally have 22 years qualifying service.
I'd like one - I missed out on the Silver Jubilee - unfortunately its issue was restricted to the chosen few and not as the Golden Jubilee Medal -universal to all eligible personnel!
I wonder just how many of those who deny us the right to the PJM collected a jubilee medal? Just think all the civil serants that probably have a minimum of two medals - The Antigua and Barbuda and the Jubilee whereas many of our guys have none save for the PJM which they are denied wearing.
I really believe, for Brennan and company to continue to misinform Ministers and others, they are really playing with fire and I truly hope they will get their fingers burnt - whether Gordon Brown will believe the Don or Twigg and the Brennan Gang I wouldn't like to guess - only hope.
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Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:45 pm |
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'Jock' Fenton
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1222
Location: Ontario, Canada
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BREAKING NEWS
There has been a dramatic development....Don Touhig has arranged a PJM debate in Westminster Hall .....see this link for details of how you may be able to help....PLEASE do so now....!!
http://www.fight4thepjm.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=14291#14291
_________________ ...................'Jock'
Paroi...Rasah...Batu Signals Troop.
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Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:30 pm |
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MB
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 807
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BREAKING NEWS.
Jock.
Having thanked Barry I now thank my Hon Chairman for also publishing good news, indeed I thank all the Magnificent Seven. Exhorted by your good self to get the ancient arse into gear, Jock, I did just that, as have the usual motley crew... and got my own little band of supporters (non-uniform) into gear before emailing my Westminster SMP. Although he's hardly mair than a bairn he has helped me more than once in our fight and was an early signatory of The Don's EDM 356. He was also in the ranks of those of us on parade at 11.11.11 last month and laid a wreath. Anyway, I have already had a wee reply from his office and know he will bust a gut to support on Tuesday.
Slainte.... Mr Chairman. I have chosen Laphrohaig for this evening....saving the last drappie of Bladnoch, the most southerly malt for Tuesday....just in case.....?
Mike.
_________________ Mike Barton
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Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:22 pm |
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'Jock' Fenton
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1222
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Mike.......well done on the lobbying pal...that's the stuff we need.....as for thanking me...?
Well, I greatly appreciate the kind gesture, but really there is no need...we volunteers all have our wee roles to play and that just happens to be one of the little duties that I have gladly undertaken...and anyway, passing on good news can hardly be considered an activity worthy of gratitude....the rest of the guys on the committee (the Magnificent 7 as you so accurately dub them) permit me to handle only the simple stuff as they are never quite sure whether I have both oars in the water at any given time.
I approve your choice of Laphroaig incidentally.
_________________ ...................'Jock'
Paroi...Rasah...Batu Signals Troop.
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Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:41 pm |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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I wonder if the Oral Questions at 1430hrs on JUSTICE has any relevance to the PJM issue??
Tuesday 11 December
The House will sit in Westminster Hall between 9.30am-5.00pm
Westminster Hall Private Members' Debates -
09.30-11.00 Future funding of canals - Michael Fabricant
11.00-12.30 Malaysian campaign veterans - Mr Don Touhig
12.30-13.00 Protection of vulnerable adults in residential nursing and care homes - Mr Phil Willis
13.00-13.30 Proposed closure of Cadbury's Somerdale factory at Keynsham, North East Somerset - Dan Norris
13.30-14.00 Train services stopping in Penrith from 2008 - David Maclean
The House will sit at 2.30pm
Oral Questions - Justice, including Topical Questions
Oral Statement - Children's Plan
Debate - European Affairs
Adjournment - Funding for schools in Shropshire - Mr Owen Paterson
Source www.parliament.uk
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HD Committee: Amateurs in a Professional World
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Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:53 pm |
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Redcapfred
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 243
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Though the MOD might not recognize the conflict between 1960-62, the Malaysians DID !
During the period of the Malayan conflict all members of the civilian population were required to carry identification documents and the various services police had authority, through a warrant issued by the Commissioner of Singapore Police, to demand production of such identification.
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Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:13 pm |
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Kentsboro
Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Hampshire
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Don Touhig's debate
I received a letter from Sandra Gidley on 17th December regarding the Don's debate on Tuesday 11th December. My apologies for the late publication, but I have been offline since about 12th November for technical reasons far too boring to even consider. Suffice to say if anyone is thinkiing of changing to Pipex - don't bother!
She enclosed the extract from Hansard Column 25WH to Column 42WH.
_________________ Veni vidi vinci
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Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:33 am |
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'Jock' Fenton
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1222
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Thank you Tony for posting this.....Ms Gidley MP has been and remains, a staunch supporter and her promise of continuing activism is most encouraging....In addition, Ms Gidley isn't the only one who is going to continue the work for the ultimate justice for all recipients of the PJM.
At the risk of appearing somewhat repetitive let me once again openly state that we, members of the Fight4, are NOT going to go away.....!
_________________ ...................'Jock'
Paroi...Rasah...Batu Signals Troop.
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Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:54 pm |
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'Jock' Fenton
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1222
Location: Ontario, Canada
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In explanation
This posting is made in response to panicky emails received from members, unable to access my previous post...Permit me to assure all and sundry that the inaccessibility of the foregoing is not, as variously suggested:
....as the result of a hostile New Year's coup of the Chairman's office by a dissident faction of disgruntled Committee members (although I make no rash promises or pronouncements)
....indicative of the possibility that I may, finally, have succumbed to the cumulative effects of over-indulgence in Single Malt.
....neither does it indicate that I have been suspended 'sine-die' for posting articles of a salacious and/or insensitive nature.
....Personally I think it's just one of those occasional 'glitches' that happen on even the best of Websites every now and again...?
Sincerely.
_________________ ...................'Jock'
Paroi...Rasah...Batu Signals Troop.
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Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:46 am |
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