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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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John Cooper wrote:From the Scottish Parliament
S2M-3489 Christine Grahame: Pingat Jasa Malaysia Medal—That the Parliament regrets the decision by Her Majesty’s Government to refuse to allow veterans of the Malaysian emergency from 1953 to 1957, including the King’s Own Scottish Borderers, to accept the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal; notes that other Commonwealth nations such as New Zealand and Australia have allowed their veterans to accept this recognition; further notes that this recognition will extend shortly to veterans from Fiji, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda and Zimbabwe; considers that this refusal is wholly unacceptable and inexplicable, and therefore urges the Scottish Executive, on behalf of the Scottish regiments such as the King’s Own Scottish Borderers, to make immediate representations to Her Majesty’s Government to right this obvious wrong which insults both veterans and the Malaysian Government.
Supported by: Michael Matheson, Alex Neil, Donald Gorrie, Brian Adam, Robin Harper, Mr Adam Ingram, Eleanor Scott, Roseanna Cunningham*, Alasdair Morgan*, Mr Kenny MacAskill*
Those dates look a bit dodgy, John! I know they are the ones used, not yours.
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:50 pm |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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One in today from The Cabinet Office reinforcing Mr Coneys refusal for an appeal
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Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:20 pm |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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George F wrote:How come the Queen only used the Royal Perogative to disallow her own British citizens the right to wear the PJM medal yet she never used it against her Commonwealth citizens of Australia and New Zealand?
Great one, George. That is the $64 question!
Something to do, I suspect, with Her being driven by the 'suits' who want to prolong an antiquated and out of date Imperial Honours System.
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:46 pm |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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George F wrote:This letter shows we are begining to really annoy the 'suits' in Whitehall over the PJM issue.
It also shows that they are prepared to use our loyalty to the Queen to 'blackmail' us, or to shame us, if we do wear the PJM.
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:11 pm |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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An email in from Chris Edge yesterday from the FCO
Mr Cooper
Thank you for this and your previous e-mails, which have awaited my return from leave.
With regard to the wearing of the PJM - the wearing of non-British awards is not policed, and no law is broken if an individual wears such an award, even though official permission to do so may not have been given. It is a matter for the individual concerned whether they wish to wear the PJM on this basis.
Similarly when you come to receive your PJM.
Please note that it is not the Foreign and Commonwealth Office which "has denied me my rights to wear this medal as a civilian....." The recommendation with regard to the PJM was made by the Committee on the Grant of Honours Decorations and Medals. As you know, an exception to the rules governing the accepting and wearing of non-British awards was made, to allow the Malaysian authorities to present the PJM and for British veterans to receive it. Without this exception, I think it is extremely unlikely that the Malaysian authorities would have gone ahead and presented the medals.
On a related matter, you have sent an e-mail to the FCO, asking why a Civil Servant has denied you your basic human rights under the European Charter. Human Rights is not my field of knowledge/expertise but I note that your e-mail followed on from one from the Ministry of Defence, asking you to correspond with them about the PJM through their correspondence unit. I cannot see how your human rights might be affected by this request, but as I say, I am not an expert in these matters.
I hope that any further questions you may have about the PJM will be covered in the reply to the "PJM Rebuttal Statement" submitted by Barry Fleming, which will be sent once the (considerable number of) points in the statement have been fully considered.
Yours sincerely,
Chris Edge
PS I note that you have written to your MP, asking him to ask me a question about the rules. In your letter you say that "he apparently does not wish to answer this question". I can find no record of you having asked me this question. Basically, the rules governing the accepting and wearing of foreign awards apply to all British citizens, regardless of where they work or indeed whether they work. Sir Michael Lord will receive an official reply on this point in due course.
CJE
-----Original Message-----
From: JOHN COOPER [mailto:johncooper]
Sent: 06 August 2006 08:45
To: chris.edge@fco.gov.uk
Subject: The Pingat Jasa Malaysia Medal
PJM/HD
Mr Chris Edge Foreign & Commonwealth Office
Dear Mr Edge
I am soon to be awarded The Pingat Jasa Malaysia Medal by the Government of Malaysia. The department I am addressing this letter to has denied me my rights to wear this medal as a civilian via Her Majesty The Queen, can you please inform me what my rights of appeal are against this, in my opinion, unfair decision.
I am not representing a group of people here, it is an individual request by myself, there are laws in the UK and the EC giving me the right to appeal, please advise me of my statutory rights.
If for any reason your department cannot answer this question, would you please forward this on to someone who can with the courtesy of a reply
cc Sir Michael Lord, MP Deputy Speaker of The House Of Commons
Yours sincerely
John Cooper
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Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:19 am |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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[quote="George F"] John Cooper wrote:
Mr Edge's statement is like saying to his son. "An exeption to your daddy and mummy's rules of accepting and riding of bicycles was made so you could accept a present of a new bicycle. Without this acception I think it is extremely unlikely Granny would have gone ahead and presented you with your bike. Just because you are not allowed to ride your bike is no excuse for being such an ungrateful boy"
George F
That is a rather good analogy George!
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Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:14 am |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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So that we do not lose sight of this one from Boyd McLeary UKHC to Malaysia
http://www.fight4thepjm.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=680&start=75
Friday 15th September 2006 was the last date posted by Andy/McDangle
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Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:48 am |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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I hadn't seen this one before from The Scottish Parliament, travel three quarters down the page approx
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/businessBulletin/bb-05/bb-11-07f.htm
S2M-3489 Christine Grahame: Pingat Jasa Malaysia Medal—That the Parliament regrets the decision by Her Majesty’s Government to refuse to allow veterans of the Malaysian emergency from 1953 to 1957, including the King’s Own Scottish Borderers, to accept the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal; notes that other Commonwealth nations such as New Zealand and Australia have allowed their veterans to accept this recognition; further notes that this recognition will extend shortly to veterans from Fiji, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda and Zimbabwe; considers that this refusal is wholly unacceptable and inexplicable, and therefore urges the Scottish Executive, on behalf of the Scottish regiments such as the King’s Own Scottish Borderers, to make immediate representations to Her Majesty’s Government to right this obvious wrong which insults both veterans and the Malaysian Government.
Supported by: Michael Matheson, Alex Neil, Donald Gorrie, Brian Adam, Robin Harper, Mr Adam Ingram, Eleanor Scott, Roseanna Cunningham*, Alasdair Morgan*, Mr Kenny MacAskill*
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Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:26 pm |
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mcdangle
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Scotland
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George F wrote:John, that support from members of the Scottish Parliament was last year when we were trying to persuade HMG to let us receive the PJM medal.
George F
The Petition to the Scottish Petitions Committee on behalf of the fight4thepjm is being heard on 15th. November, 2006. Linda Fabiani MSP and Christine Grahame MSP are suppoorters and have stated they will attempt to get other MSP's to sign the petition. Alex Salmond MP, Brigadier Frank Coutts and Brigadier Allan Alstead have alread signed it.
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Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:20 am |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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George F wrote:Do anyone know are those MSP's who supported us from last year coming onboard this year?
George, We have been lobbying hard in Scotland and we have considerable support from MSPs and Scottish MPs in London.
Andy, who won't want me to say this but he has worked tirelessly for our cause in Scotland and amongst MSPs, has pointed to the Scottish Petition due to be heard in November. The Petition offers an interesting proposition to those MSPs!
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:35 am |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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George F wrote:If the Scottish Parliament issued a statement that all Scottish Veterans intitled to the PJM medal could officially wear the medal on remembrance day then that would be something, wouldn't it?
It would mean everythging to many people, George, particularly hotel owners throughout Scotland! They'll be fully booked in November with an unprecedented rush of temporary 'incomers' from south of the border!
Barry
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:09 am |
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mcdangle
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Scotland
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BarryF wrote:George F wrote:If the Scottish Parliament issued a statement that all Scottish Veterans intitled to the PJM medal could officially wear the medal on remembrance day then that would be something, wouldn't it?
It would mean everythging to many people, George, particularly hotel owners throughout Scotland! They'll be fully booked in November with an unprecedented rush of temporary 'incomers' from south of the border!
Barry
Barry,
Great idea, perhaps we should be warning them.
George,
I do not understand your comments about last year. Everything I have done with the Petition to the Scottish Parliament has been posted on the site and Linda Fabiani MSP, and Christine Graham MSP, and Alex Salmond have all been contacted recently not last year. So we are up to date way up here in the sticks.
Christine Grahame submitted her Letter of support on behalf of KOSB veterans who had a meeting with her and unfortunately they got a bit of it wrong, but no harm done.
The funny thing, is that all MSP's have been very keen to support us but in the past two weeks I have not had any reply from them to my emails, when previously they replied almost before I had sent them - only joking!!
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Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:36 pm |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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[img]
I wrote this letter to my MP a few weeks back this is the reply I received from Ian McCartney MP, it basically does not address my enquiry at all!
[/i]Dear Sir Michael,
Could you please ask Mr Chris Edge at The Foreign & Commonwealth Office
'does these FCO medal rules (below) and regulations for foreign
decorations put up in the library by The Rt Hon Jack Straw MP last year
concern British citizens who are not the Queens Subjects and as
civilian veterans do not work for the Sovereign or HMG'? He apparently
does not wish to answer this question
Foreign Decorations
Dr. Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and
Commonwealth Affairs what the criteria are for allowing (a) current and
(b) former service personnel to (i) accept and (ii) wear medals offered
by foreign governments in respect of past campaigns. [30618]
Mr. Straw [holding answer 21 November 2005]: The criteria for
considering whether foreign awards and decorations may be accepted and
worn are contained in the Rules Governing the Accepting and Wearing of
Foreign Orders, Decorations and Medals by Citizens of the United
Kingdom and Her Overseas Territories. I set out as follows the Rules
and will place copies in the Library of the House. In addition, the
Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals is currently
considering a paper from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office relating
to a review of the rules.
Rules governing the acceptance and wearing of Foreign Orders,
Decorations and Medals by citizens of the United Kingdom and her
overseas territories
These rules set out the circumstances under which a citizen of the
United Kingdom or her overseas territories ("UK citizen") may be
granted The Sovereign's permission to accept and wear an Order,
Decoration or Medal ("foreign award") conferred by a Head of State or
Government of a foreign country. Head of Government of a Commonwealth
country of which The Sovereign is not Head of State and certain
international organisations (collectively referred to as "foreign
state").
Principles
1. No UK citizen 1 may accept and wear a foreign award without the
Sovereign's permission. Such permission must be sought as soon as there
is an indication that an award may be offered.
2. The granting of permission for a UK citizen to accept an award
offered by a foreign state will only be considered if the award
recognises specified services rendered to the interests of that foreign
state.
3. Permission will not be given for UK citizens to accept a foreign
award if they have received, or are expected to receive, a UK award for
the same services.
4. Acceptance of a foreign award does not mean that the UK will make a
reciprocal offer directly or indirectly associated with the UK
recipient
Permission
5. Permission to wear a foreign award, if granted, will be either:
unrestricted—allowing the award to be worn on any occasion, or
restricted—allowing the award to be worn only on particular occasions
associated with the foreign state that conferred it.
6. The grant of permission, whether unrestricted or restricted, will be
conveyed by letter to the UK citizen concerned from the Sovereign's
Private Secretary.
Application
7. A foreign state wishing to confer an award on a UK citizen is
expected to ascertain—through its Diplomatic Representative at The
Court of St. James's—whether permission to accept an award would be
likely to be given. Such requests for clearance will only be
entertained in respect of awards given by Heads of State or Governments
recognised as such by the Sovereign.
8. Requests made by certain international organisations (e.g. the
United Nations and NATO) in respect of service in operations under
their auspices should be made to the Defence Services Secretary in the
Ministry of Defence.
9. Requests made in respect of services rendered more than five years
previously, or in connection with events in the distant past (e.g.
commemorative awards), will not be entertained.
10. Requests for clearance meeting the requirement of these regulations
will be submitted to The Sovereign for consideration by the Secretary
of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs—who will be under no
obligation to make such a submission if the application has not been
made as indicated in paragraphs 7 and 8 above.
11. Requests for clearance in the case of foreign awards conferred by
private societies or institutions will not be granted.
Guidelines
12. Each request will be treated on a case by case basis. The fact that
a similar application has been approved in the past should not be taken
as implying that permission will be granted.
13. The grant of unrestricted permission will be considered in the case
of foreign awards conferred for services:
related to the saving or attempting to save life 2 ;
by any member of the UK Armed Forces or other UK official on exchange,
attachment or loan to a foreign state who is involved in a military
operation or an emergency 3 on behalf of that country, state or
organisation;
by any member of the UK Armed Forces serving in a UK Unit within a
bi-lateral force under the command of the other country who renders
especial service to the country's forces in a military operation or
emergency; or
in military operations under the auspices of an international
organisation (e.g. the United Nations).
14. The grant of restricted permission will be considered in the case
of foreign awards conferred:
on the occasion of and in connection with a State or official visit by
a Head of State or Government of a foreign or Commonwealth country;
in connection with a State visit by the Sovereign; or
to members of Special Missions when The Sovereign is represented at a
coronation, wedding or funeral or other similar occasion: or on any
Diplomatic Representative when specially accredited to represent The
Sovereign on such occasions.
15. Other than in circumstances described in paragraphs 13 and 14
above, permission, unrestricted or restricted, will not be granted to 5
:
Crown servants generally,
in particular, to Heads or other members of HM Diplomatic or Consular
establishments abroad when leaving their posts—whether on transfer or
on final retirement; and
senior officials, military and civilian, visiting foreign states.
16. No permission is needed for the acceptance of any foreign award if
it is designed not to be worn.
Notes:
1 This includes British subjects and British-protected persons (BPPs).
BPPs may accept awards conferred by their Rulers.
2 Including medals issued by life saving societies and institutions
(but these must be worn on the right breast).
3 It will be for the UK to decide if the operations or emergency is of
the standard to fall within this criterion.
4 This does not apply to his or her staff.
5 This guidance normally applies equally to the spouses or partners of
Crown servants.[/quote]
Yours sincerely,
John Cooper
[url=http://upload4.postimage.org/1174917/photo_hosting.html]
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Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:09 pm |
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mcdangle
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Scotland
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![Post Post](templates/ca_aphrodite_green/images/icon_post.gif) British Citizens.
British Citizens: people became British Citizens on 1st. January, 1983, if they were citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies on 31st. December, 1982, and had the right of abode in the UK on that date.
The Foreign and Commonwealth Orders, Regulations, 1969, referred to British Nationals as Her Majesty's subject ie British Subjects. These Regulations were never amended or altered by Parliament and the 'Guidelines' deposited in the House Library by Jack Straw, and referred to as Rules governing the accepting and wearing of Foreign awards and decorations changed the term from British Subjects to British Citizens.
Can this be legal. We have proved that these Jack Straw 'guidlines' are non-statutory and have no legal binding whatsoever upon British Citizens who must be dealt with by democractic procedures but once again we find that the self-opinionated 'suits' believe that they can make us do what they demand.
Once again, Mr. Blurr, we must reiterate that we are equal under the law as stated in the Human Rights Act and by withholding the right to wear the PJM medal under supposed rules is a deception which sooner or later will have to be addressed by the Civil Servants involved.
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Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:28 pm |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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We have the second barrel to discharge yet Andy, collate the info mate as I know you are doing, who would want to be a Civil Servant, eh?
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Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:38 pm |
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