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John Feltham
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 764
Location: Townsville, North Queensland
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![Post Post](templates/ca_aphrodite_green/images/icon_post.gif) Support From Malaysia
I have just received a msg from a correspondent in Malaysia telling us that the title "Pingat Jasa Malaysia" means what it says.
Malaysia Service Medal.
It is not, a "Commemorative Medal", my correspondent writes.
John f.
_________________ Merdeka, Merdeka, Merdeka,
from the HD Committee and its decision.
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:01 am |
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John Feltham
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 764
Location: Townsville, North Queensland
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George, You misunderstand my msg.
My correspondent who lives in Malaysia is reporting what PJM means to those in Malaysia. Not what people in the UK think.
They, the people of Malaysia think that it is a Service Medal.
Thats why *they* call it the "Malaysian Service Medal".
Don't shoot the messenger.
_________________ Merdeka, Merdeka, Merdeka,
from the HD Committee and its decision.
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:06 pm |
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mcdangle
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Scotland
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![Post Post](templates/ca_aphrodite_green/images/icon_post.gif) Service Medal
I agree with George F - there seems to be a deal of misunderstanding in regard to the PJM.
I have a letter in my file from Col Abdullah Yatim, Defence Adviser, Office of the Defence Advisor for Malaysia, dated 26th. July, 2004, which 'inter alia' states - I have the honour to inform you that the Malaysian Government have approved to award a Malaysian Commemorative Medal (PJM) - the PJM in brackets is his doing and not mine!
The New Straits Times dated 6th. April, 2005, ran an article under the heading - Medals for Defenders of Malaysia. In this article it stated that 'Foreign Minister Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar said - Since we have honoured our people, the Cabinet felt that we needed to recognise the SERVICES (my capitals) of those from Australia, New Zealand and other Commonwealth countries who have given much for the security of Malaysia'.
It went on to say that 'The PJM is in recognition of their distinguished chivalry, gallantry, sacrifice and loyalty to the freedom of indepence of Malaysia'. It also says - dozens lost their lives in both conflicts.
To mention the PJM in the same breath as a medal to commemorate an event like the ones worn on the left breast of certain Princes in the House of Windsor, is an absolute disgrace and an insult to the Malaysians and our comrades who died.
If the Foreign Minister of Malaysia refers to it as an honour for 'service' then that is what it is and his word should be good enough for everyone.
I also agree with Inceni and hope the messenger's wound is not too serious?
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:08 pm |
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John Feltham
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 764
Location: Townsville, North Queensland
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I am acting like the meat in sandwich here.....well perhaps not the meat, just the messenger.
More correspondence from Malaysia.
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Well, What can I say? The description under the ribbon plainly states that the PJM is a SERVICE medal and the Foreign Minister, who has to be very careful of what he says & be sure of his facts before he utters them, states that it is a SERVICE medal. From the horse's mouth, you might say. If, & I emphasis the word 'IF' here, if the PJM was a commemorative medal, it would have been engraved on the medal as such, don't you think?
Of course, if the British Government chooses to classify it as a Commerative medal, that's a different kettle of fish. Frankly John, no foreign government can change what any other country has to offer as an award. The Brits can call it anything they like, but the fact is, in Malaysia it is a Service medal and you can wear it as such, being bestowed on you as a thank you for risking your life to defend this country. And as you said, you are retired and not bound by British Government rules any longer, so if you want to wear it formally, go ahead and wear it. For me, if it doesn't have the word 'Commemorative' engraved on it, it is NOT a commemorative medal. I know what a commemorative medal is, we have them awarded from time to time, in all the states here as personal but not official awards by the Sultans and Rajas with the word Commemorative on them or just blank, with the Sultan/Raja's silhouette engraved on it.
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I will of course, point out to my correspondent, that we want to have the right to accept and wear the PJM at any time.
_________________ Merdeka, Merdeka, Merdeka,
from the HD Committee and its decision.
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:12 pm |
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'Jock' Fenton
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1222
Location: Ontario, Canada
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This post will not contribute anything novel to the ongoing discussion I fear...it might, however, serve to indicate just how the PJM is regarded by Malaysians....Follows: an excerpt from an e-mail I recently received:
"Dear Mr. Fenton,
The Consulate General of Malaysia would like to extend her heartiest congratulations to you and your comrades on receiving such a prestigious award from the Government of Malaysia. "
....A little premature perhaps since none of us have actually seen the medal yet?...but the Malaysian nation obviously holds the decoration, and the recipients of same, in high esteem.
_________________ ...................'Jock'
Paroi...Rasah...Batu Signals Troop.
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:25 pm |
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mcdangle
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Scotland
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![Post Post](templates/ca_aphrodite_green/images/icon_post.gif) PJM
Sorry George, I disagree with you when you state 'everyone disagreed with me'.
No they didn't and quite a number on the forum agreed that the PJM was a 'service medal'.
However, to create a reason to withdraw the wearing of the PJM the British Regime called it commemorative and then embarked on their usual spin and untruths. I am sure that you are all aware that the policy of the present government is to attack all opposition to their own opinions, irrespective of whom is right.
It seems to me that everyone is in agreement that a). the British Government have no legal authority to interfere with a medal issued by another country by demeaning it and calling it what they want to call it. b) the rest of the Commonwealth, including the Governor General of Australia, and Her Majesty the Queen (of the Commonwealth) all agreed it is a medal to be worn as a service medal.
It is a great honour from the Malaysian people and despite what the bampots at the FCO say, I will wear it with pride and dam them all.
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:21 pm |
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admin
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 98
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![Post Post](templates/ca_aphrodite_green/images/icon_post.gif) Re: PJM
George F wrote:N01) I agree with HMG, OZ & Kiwi governments and the Malaysian High Commission that PJM Malaysian Service Medal is a Commemorative medal.
George, you are, of course, correct in placing the PJM within the class of ‘commemorative’ medals. But I, for one, do not like the PJM being called a Commemorative in isolation. You have detailed knowledge about medals that enables you to make that statement with authority, but not all our audience has the same knowledge. To many, ‘Commemorative’ implies something you can buy in the medal store – it is not earned by service - it acknowledges that something happened. That’s all. Even the most respected of medal magazines recently linked 'commemorative' with those medals that are sold in abundance and should not be worn.
And so I am unhappy!
But you combined it with a correct translation of the PJM, referring to it as a Service medal.
And so I am happy!
But I am also aware that while your use of the word is technically correct, others with an agenda that aims to frustrate our campaign is using the word in a quite different context – in the context that because it is a ‘commemorative’ it falls within the 5-year Rule and is unworthy of being worn in line with 'other medals.
And so I am unhappy!
But others on this Forum are making an equally valid and potentially fundamental point – that the PJM is a medal for service (I’m not at home at the mo’ but I think the GSM has ‘For Campaign Service’ on it). Critically, that expression was also used by the Cabinet Office in a letter to me ( http://www.fight4thepjm.org/the_pjm_cabinet_office_letter_1.htm). The very heading of that letter is “Pingat Jasa Malaysia (PJM) for service between 1957 and 1966”. The letter goes on to draw parallels with ‘campaign service’.
And so I am happy!
But I believe that they are using the terms ‘service’ and ‘campaign service’ to sucker us into a position whereby we are reinforcing their shameful argument about double-medalling (an objection you have articulately demolished on this Forum when referring to the Naval GSM (or lack of it)).
And so I am unhappy!
And we should all be unhappy! Because we have to be very careful not to be suckered into an argument – particularly amongst ourselves.
We are in great need of support for both the terms – used in the right context. And that, I think, is what people were doing on the Forum when referring to the term ‘service’ in relation to a medal that 'commemorates service'.
Barry
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:43 pm |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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The GSM w/c Malaya on the one I have doesn't mention CAMPAIGN SERVICE anywhere on the medal
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HD Committee: Amateurs in a Professional World
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:50 pm |
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admin
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 98
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![Post Post](templates/ca_aphrodite_green/images/icon_post.gif) Re: PJM
quote="George F"]No3) HMG had the right to reject the PJM completely irrespective of how embarrassing it would be to them. You, myself, 35000 Veterans and the whole UK population couldn't have done one fiddlers feck about it.[/quote]
True, George. They did have the right … and exercised it in, I think, January 2005
They did at first reject the PJM (technically, it had not at that stage been offered to the Brits) – but it was (excuse the sycophancy here – but we do ‘owe’ you) entirely down to your efforts that the FCO were lobbied successfully and asked the HD Committee to rethink the issue.
So you did do “one fiddler’s feck” about it. And won. The other 34,999 of us, were waiting in the wings to fight with you once we understood the arguments you were putting forward.
And fight we did through to December. And we won the first battle in the war.
If we stick together, we’ll win the second. But it will take all of us, and so from time to time, we have to bite on the bullet.
Barry aka Admin (again!)
PS Can’t find ‘feck’ in either me spell-checker or dictionary, George! Nooooo … don’t trouble to translate …I’ll use my imagination!!
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:55 pm |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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John Cooper wrote:The GSM w/c Malaya on the one I have doesn't mention CAMPAIGN SERVICE anywhere on the medal
I could be wrong, John, but I thought the Borneo or Malay Peninsula CSM's did say "For Campaign Service" on the 'other' side.
And I'm not being provocative here but (George are you there?) I think I am using the right terminology for the post-1962 medal ... Campaign Service Medal. Perhaps GF will confirm. Thanks, Barry aka admin
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:00 pm |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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BarryF wrote:I could be wrong, John, but I thought the Borneo or Malay Peninsula CSM's did say "For Campaign Service" on the 'other' side.
PS ... and if it does, but shouldn't, I'll sue the bar steward in the Medal shop who flogged it to me!
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:04 pm |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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![Post Post](templates/ca_aphrodite_green/images/icon_post.gif) Re: PJM
George F wrote:Barry, Had HMG rejected the PJM completely there is nothing we could have done about it. In fact we couldn't even have campaigned because the Malaysian Government would have been so snubbed they would never have offered the PJM medal again. It would have been end of story.
(Rewriting ... just lost the last message somewhere in the ether)
I agree, George. But when Baroness Symons opened her mouth 'in anticipation' of the PJM being offered, you were there to make her eat her words.
And for that I'm indebted to you. If you hadn't inspired that lobby, it really would have been an end without a beginning.
Barry
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:36 pm |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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![Post Post](templates/ca_aphrodite_green/images/icon_post.gif) Re: PJM
BarryF wrote:when Baroness Symons opened her mouth 'in anticipation' of the PJM being offered,
George, do you think that the Malaysians played a great hand on this one. They definitely offered the PJM to the Aussies and Kiwis first - and I was told that they did that knowing the British establishment would poke them in the eye and snub them behind closed doors. HMG found that difficult to do in the public domain when the Aussies and Kiwis had been so gracious in their approach to the offer.
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:39 pm |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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![Post Post](templates/ca_aphrodite_green/images/icon_post.gif) Re: PJM
George F wrote:You do not have to have a PHD in military medals to know the difference between an Official Commemorative gong and an unofficial Commemorative gong. The rules are very simple. ... You buy an unofficial Commemorative gong designed and minted by a commercial company. ...
You are awarded an Official Commemorative gong designed and minted under contract and paid for by the British of Foreign government
I hope the HD in PHD doesn't mean what I think it means ... those bar stewards are inveigling their way into everything we do!
Anyway… no matter how seemingly straightforward the words and their meanings, I was suggesting that HMG and the HD Committee will use them, and spin them, to suit whichever argument they are chasing. They make corkscrews look like six inch nails.
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:53 pm |
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John Feltham
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 764
Location: Townsville, North Queensland
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BarryF wrote:I could be wrong, John, but I thought the Borneo or Malay Peninsula CSM's did say "For Campaign Service" on the 'other' side.
Both GS medals that I have, have got "For Campaign Service" on the 'other' side.
But......it seems that we have all lost the thread of this particular topic.
And that was, what the Malaysians point of view is. Nothing more, nothing less.
John f.
_________________ Merdeka, Merdeka, Merdeka,
from the HD Committee and its decision.
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Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:17 am |
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