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mcdangle
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Scotland
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Regulations.
The original regulations relating to the acceptance and wear of foreign orders, decorations, and medals, according to Hansard on 27/5/88 and 2/12/88 was the Foreign and Commonwealth Orders, Regulations, 1969.
These regulations are in two parts -
PART A -Regulations concerning the Acceptance and Wearing by Persons in the Service of the Crown of Orders, Decorations and Medal....... These regulations are marked 1 to15.
Regulation 1 starts 'NO PERSON IN THE SERVICE OF THE CROWN MAY ACCEPT AND WEAR THE INSIGNIA OF ANY ORDER OR DECORATION WITHOUT HER MAJESTY'S PERMISSION.
PART B - Regulations concerning the Acceptance and Wearing by Persons NOT in the Service of[b] the Crown,[/b] of Orders, Decorations and Medals.
Regulation 1 starts - It is the Queen's WISH that Her Majesty's subjects should not accept and wear the insignia of any such order or decoration without Her Majesty's permission.
The new Regulations placed in the Library of the House of Commons circa 21st. November, 2005, are a combination of the two previous regulations.
Our previous suspicions that these regulations are not legal and the fact that they cannot recommend to Her Majesty The Queen that British Citizens cannot wear the PJM without permission is compounded by that part of the previous regulations relating to those not in the service of the Crown who are advised that it is Her Majesty's Wish and not a command, not an order, and not involved with Royal prerogative, but a Wish of Her Majesty whereby confirming that civilians cannot be given such orders.
The rules supplied by Jack Straw are a complete and utter nonsense and should be withdrawn and properly written to treat equally and fairly under the law the citizens of this country. They cannot tell anyone that 'permission to wear the PJM has, unfortunately, not been formally given' - utter dross!!
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Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:55 pm |
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bob_bryant
Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 82
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Most of us will wear the PJM. If I were Her Majesty I would feel very let down by the HD committee who gave the WRONG advice, because now there will be once totaly loyal veterans prepared to ignore her wishes.
A very sad situation brought about by pompous asses living in a bygone era.
Bob Bryant
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Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:36 pm |
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ro5=6372
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 1763
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..
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Last edited by ro5=6372 on Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:06 pm |
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mcdangle
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Scotland
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Bob and George,
Quite correct and what I cannot understand is The Queen must know she gave authority to Australia and New Zealand veterans to accept and wear the PJM thus recognising it as an honourable medal given by an honourable people. She and those who advise her must also know that, like George said, we are living in the 21st. century where we are all equal under the law and under the Human Rights Act so why did they think they would get away with picking on British Citizens and discriminating against them in this manner.
Baroness Symonds misled the House of Lords, Jack Straw told lies to the House of Commons when he told them that the British Government had not declined to accept the PJM and supplied Rules which are not worth a glance because they have no legal authority whatsoever and the dumbest of dumb then recommended these rules to Her Majesty knowing full well they had been changed and altered and that a non-wearing rule was not included in them, and what is it all for - to stop law-abiding previously loyal Citizens from wearing a medal - why, your Majesty, just answer Why?
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Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:18 pm |
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mcdangle
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Scotland
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Medal Regulations.
George, I am not an expert on the law relating to medals but from what I can see is they publish these rules in the London Gazette as a guidline and the only rules I can find which have been referred to in Parliament are the Foreign and Commonwealth Orders, Regulations, 1969, which appear to be legislated rules and are separated to deal with A - those in the service of the Crown, and B - those not in the service of the Crown. Clever, or what? Anyway these rules were referred to in the House of Commons, our Parliament, as the rules governing the acceptance and wearing of foreign awards and those in the service of the Crown were told what to do, and those not in the service of the Crown were told that it was the Queen's 'wish' that they do so and so - this not being an order. Then along comes Jack straw with his bullshit that Baroness Symonds (the Government!!) did not reject the offer of the PJM medal and he produced new rules on the wearing and accepting of foreign awards. He amended, without as much as by your leave, the 1969 regulations and made the new rules apply to all British Citizens and 'ordered' them what to do or wear.
I still think what they did was unconstitutional, undemocratic, and unlawful.
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:48 am |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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European MPs
I think the time is ripe to also lobby our Euro MPs on this subject of the non wearing right
Let us beat the drum on this issue in Europe, who knows it could end up in the Human Courts of Rights in Strasbourg, our Commonwealth Cousins know the issues, let us get our Euro Cousins involved too.
YOUR EURO MP CAN BE FOUND HERE http://www.europarl.org.uk/uk_meps/MembersSommet.htm
_________________ --------------------------------------------------------------
HD Committee: Amateurs in a Professional World
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:58 am |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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Re: Medal Regulations.
George F wrote:This was the sole responsibility of the HD committee.
George, is this a fact or surmise? As I understand it the HD Committee is non-Departmental and thus is not part of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office or Ministry of Defence. The Foreign Decorations rules were presented to Parliament via the back door - Jack Straw placed them in the Commons Library.
I suspect that the so-called 'Rules' are a concoction made up by the MoD (Richard Coney), Denis Brennan (Cabinet Office) but overseen by Chris Edge in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
George F wrote:
These rules ( set in place in 1994)
I thought that some restrictions regarding British medals in respect of operations more than 5 years earlier were recommended to a very ill King after WW2, in the early 1950's, in order to control the number of British Operational Medal requests that were likely to have been proffered by British commanders after a world wide conflict. I also understand that they were never signed off by the King.
They had nothing to do with medals like the PJM which is a Foreign Decorations, but the HD Committee, FCO and MoD have surreptitiously tried to build that WW2 expediency into so-called Rules, even to the extent of trying to infer that they should apply to foreign awards (the WW2 restriction was in respect of British awards) and to commemorative awards (the WW2 restriction was in respect of British Operational awards like the campaign stars and medals).
I think Andy’s point is additional to all that. I think he is saying that in 1988 some ‘rules’ were referred to that arose at some time in the 1960’s and that those rules were in two quite separate parts - Persons in the Service of the Crown and Persons Not in the Service of the Crown.
Somewhere, sometime, a civil servant seems to have tried to join those two together to suit his own purpose. And that’s how, as you say, more rules were referred to in the mid-1990’s and then again in 2005 … the one’s that purport to have been “long-established”. I don’t think so!
Where is the lawfulness in all this?
Barry
PS There are 8 members of the HD Committee. Most of them take no real part in the discussion - when you write to them your letters are forwarded and their scripts are written by Messrs Coney (MoD) and Edge (FCO) - as well as by Mr Brennan or his Deputy Eleri Pengelli (Cabinet Office). Thus two relatively low level civil servants, and one member of the HD Committee, essentially control the whole of this side of the Imperial Honours System!
Where is the prudent governance in all this?
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:27 am |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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Re: Medal Regulations.
George F wrote:Its fact.
Thanks, George.
I just wanted to be sure we all understood that these 'rules' are made up as they go along by a bunch of civil servants.
The 'rules' are not on any Letterhead showing the originating office or person.
Nor are they signed - they are anonymous.
Nor are they dated.
I wonder why .... !
You'd have thought that rules that deprive British citizens of their rights would at least be attributable to somebody, some department, and dated.
They are supposed to be signed off by the Queen. They haven't been.
The 'rules' Jack Straw refers to are simply a couple of pages of words that a civil servant considered sufficient to knock together in order to stop us wearing a medal we have earned.
It's sickening.
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:09 am |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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Re: Medal Regulations.
George F wrote:Ironically no FCO ministers or FCO civil servants are involved in constructing any of these rules themselves.
I see the hand of the MoD and FCO civil servants all over that document.
How can an HD Committee document be presented to parliament by the Foreign Secretary - a paper purporting to lay out the basis of a Ministerial Statement - as if it had FCO approval without its involvement. The HD Committee hangs its hat on the hook of 'no ministerial or governmental influence and being answerable to the Queen and only to the Queen'. They can't have it both ways whereby suddenly their 'rules' are surreptitiously inserted into the Commons as if part of our legislatative and governmental process.
Your suggestion implies that the Queen (the Fountain of all Honours and the person to whom the HD Committee is responsible - and the person who is supposed to approve these 'rules' (laws?) and sign them off) has found a back door to the Commons! Hells bells - there's a thought. The HD Committee in cahoots with a monarch gets its decisions on British citizens' rights into Parliament.
Oliver, climb down from your statued horse outside this House and enter the statuted hall inside this House - and come to the aid once again of the people!
It's a muddle, but one of my contentions is that junior civil servants have too much input into the drawing up of 'rules' that affect the rights of ordinary men and women. Rules that touch on the lives of ordinary men and women. Rules that are designed to prevent British citizens from wearing a Foreign award. Rules that restrict human rights. Rules that are divisive within the Commonwealth. Rules that are divisive even between British citizens enabling some to wear the medal with formal permission while others may not.
Barry
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:47 pm |
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mcdangle
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Scotland
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Medal Regulations.
George, as you know I am extremely interested in the subject of rules which the suits keep throwing at us stating that we cannot wear the PJM.
Can you help please. Have you any documentation to show that the Rules on the Accepting and Wearing of foreign Awards (including the Commonwealth) as placed in the library by Jack Straw, the then Foreign Secretary in answer to a question from Dr Julian on 21st. November, 2005, were actually referred to in any other foreign medal case, or questions asked between 1988, when the original regulations were quoted, and 2005.
It would be appropriate to know what I am actually talking about because as far as I am aware the 1969 Regulation were produced by Jack Straw (note I did say produced) on or after 21st. November, 2005, as the rules we are being restricted by, and it seems that someone, other than our elected Parliament has compiled these rules which are not in this context legal requirements for British Civilians to act upon or be told to act upon and if the Constitutional Head of our Country has also been advised to accept these rules then she has also been misled.
Your assistance would be appreciated. Have I missed something. Andy.
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:35 pm |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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George F wrote:Andy,
I remember e/mailing Chris Edge regards the FCO rules Jack Straw put in the library to ask him did these rules apply to civilians who were out of uniform and not in HMG employment.
He replied the rules applied to civilians as well. When I asked him to supply documented evidence to prove the rules applied to civilians Edge refused to answer me. Hope that answers you question.
George F
George
Perhaps the time is ripe to ask the question again but via your MP where you MUST receive a reply
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HD Committee: Amateurs in a Professional World
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:11 pm |
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John Cooper
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Suffolk
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OK George, read your PM box and reply, I will get my MP to do it!
_________________ --------------------------------------------------------------
HD Committee: Amateurs in a Professional World
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:28 pm |
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mcdangle
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Scotland
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Regulations.
George and John.
Many thanks but what I am getting at the moment is not who made the new rules ie. those presented by Straw circa 21/11/05 but if there is any documentation (proof) that these rules were referred to BETWEEN then and 1988 when the other regulations were referred to in the House of Commons. In 1988 we have a set of 1969 Regulations and in 2005 we have the rules. I am sure the HD Committee had a hand in them but if I can show that these rules suddenly appeared in 2005 then they were amended and changed simply for the PJM and Jack Straw or the FCO have to carry the can for unlawful, undemocractic rules which mean zero and no-one (including Her Majesty) can be held to be accountable to any part of them including the five year rule (which appears in the 1969 rule) and the double muddling which does not appear earlier.
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:18 pm |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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George F wrote:TO MY KNOWLEDGE 1994 WAS THE FIRST AND ONLY TIME TIME IN BRITISH MILITARY HISTORY VETERAN **CIVILIANS** WERE ALLOWED TO *RECEIVE* AND *WEAR* A FOREIGN COMMEMORATIVE MILITARY MEDAL BY HMG. (if anyone finds any evidence to the contrary please let me know)
How about the Malta 50th Anniversary - awardeds to Brit military personnel.
It was awarded only if you already had the Africa Star.
It is the classic case of a double medal awarded more than 5 years after the service or events.
Barry
PS It was awarded about the same time as the Russian medal - and 50 years after the event.
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:49 am |
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BarryF
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2721
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
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BarryF wrote:It is the classic case of a double medal awarded more than 5 years after the service or events.
George,
Please refer to the Rebuttal for some discussion the Malta and other conflicting medal decisions.
It is at http://www.fight4thepjm.org/documents/Rebuttal_of_PJM_Ministerial_Statement_31012006.pdf.
Barry
_________________ BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:56 am |
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