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Post Foreign Secretary 
Ask David and Douglas
David Miliband, Labour's Foreign Secretary, along with Douglas Alexander, Secretary of State for International Development, would like to hear your thoughts on Britain's role in the world. In a joint letter David and Douglas have reflected on recent world issues, and the action Britain has taken.

After reading your comments and questions, David and Douglas will respond to as many as they can in a video for Labour:vision.

Try writting to them; you never know you might get an answer?

www.labour.org.uk/international_policy

This should get you to the comments section

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Post Milliband/Alexander. 
Paul,

Have just posted my questions as follows but I doubt very much if they will answer them.


You and others in the political world talk a great deal about Democracy, transparency and open government.

Can you please explain why you both support the recommendation of the Honours and Decorations Committee that the Pingat Jasa Malaysia, an honourable medal awarded by The Supreme Head of the Federation of Malaysia, cannot be worn by British citizens.
Is it not the policy of our Constitutional Democratic Parliament that any constraints or restrictions placed upon the freedom of British citizens is litigated through our parliament and not through an unelected committee of eight civil servants. Who runs our country? And, would it not be good government policy for the government to cultivate further good relations with Malaysia, a predominantly Muslim country, instead of singling out British citizens for special non-wearing treatment of their medal.

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Tried to 'get on board' but failed.....program will not open up without a UK Postcode and house #

....Oh Well....I did the best I could.....Will 'donate' the following text to any UK member who will post it in his/her name.

Like a previous poster, I too have a circle of friends and associates in Malaysia....their attitude to the edict that British veterans may not wear the medal graciously given by their Yang di-Pertuan Agong and the Malaysian government varies....some of them express outrage at what they perceive to be an egregious insult to their nation by the British Government...others seem to feel that this represents a resurgence of the old (and considered by most thinking citizens of either country, outdated) attitude of Colonial superiority.


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This has just been accepted; and now?

In recognition of the 50th of Malaysian Independence, the current Foreign Office Minister South East Asia, Meg Munn gave a speech at the Mansion House, London on the 25th November 2007 emphasising the close ties which the UK have with Malaysia:

“…..tens of thousands of British Soldiers served shoulder to shoulder with Malaysian armed forces. Together they laid the foundations of democracy and respect for the rule of law that helped form today’s modern Malaysia.

“ Over 1000 of those soldiers gave their lives and many more were wounded. On occasions like this it is appropriate we remember the sacrifice of these individuals and I appreciate the Malaysian Government awarding the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal to mark the important contribution they made”

It is not surprising that in a speech written to conform with Civil Service Departmental policy and complacency, no mention is made of the nearly three years struggle of veterans to wear their PJMs with pride. This refusal, often invoking Her Majesty’s authority, which we believe is the misuse of the Royal prerogative is still denied us this right. In a recent letter to my MP, Meg Munn, obviously on the advice of her Depatment civil servants repeated the 1969 regulations, which, incidentally were superseded and reissued, having been re-written, particularly Part C , to preclude the PJM from being worn and placed in the House of Commons Library.

In a debate in Westminster Hall on the 11th December 2007, one of your colleagues, in summing for HMG up stated:

“The HD’s committees plans (not to review our case again) will ultimately be
determined by decisions of Parliament”

“…..That is why I shall try to communicate to my colleagues in the Government
and the HD committee that flexibility is needed in this case. I hope that they will
take the testimonies that we have hear this morning and my words seriously”


I would hope that you as Foreign Minister, and Douglas Alexander, Minister of State for International Development will treat this as a serious matter, and illustrate that Meg Munn’s eulogy in respect of those British forces who served are not just trite and politically correct utterances, moreover, that the HD committees’ plans will be determined by Parliament.

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""



Last edited by StanW on Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post FCO Response to Michael Ancram 


This is the reply to Michael Ancrams letter to the Prime Minister! In his covering letter to me he says that he would be 'interested in my comments on the points raised' Well here they are:-

Dear Michael, thank you for your letter and the copy of the F&CO reply to my question the content of which was expected indeed even well known as it is the standard reply that they have sent to many other veterans through their respective Members of Parliament.

Firstly, there is no ‘long standing’ rule that governs the wearing of foreign awards as it was only placed in the House of Commons library recently by Jack Straw in response, we believe, to the argument about the acceptance and wearing of this award. As for the ‘five year’ rule this is absolute nonsense when put against commemorative medals as by their very nature they commemorate events in the past, the five year rule was in fact brought in to apply only to campaign medals. But in all cases, I draw your attention to the entry in the London Gazette of 1968 which says that HM allows all recipients of foreign awards and decorations to accept and wear them without restriction. The case against this put by the same Foreign Office is that the event covered by the award was whilst ‘in the service of the Crown therefore for the purposes of that award the individual is still a servant of the Crown, total rubbish as the financial rules as per the Revenue Department state quite categorically that the title ‘Crown Servant’ ceases immediately you retire from the service! Civil servants have, in my view and the view of many thousands of other veterans, deliberately misled the government over this issue and are continuing to do so on a daily basis through replies to MP’s on behalf of their constituents.

Paragraph three of Meg Munns letter to you again confuses the policy of the so called five year rule with commemorative medals but that has become common place in all correspondence in regard to the PJM to all enquirers. This IS NOT a campaign medal nor is it a British award so therefore these rules do not apply, it is the London Gazette ruling that applies and despite all the lies and obfuscations put out by this government and it’s civil servants, there can be no excuse for not allowing the wearing of this medal unrestricted by all recipients. If this is not so then we must look at the same so called rules in relation to other awards such as the Malta 50th. Anniversary Medal only awarded to holders of the Africa Star also held by Prince Phillip and the Anniversary of the Independence of Barbuda Medal recently awarded to none other than the Queens Private Secretary who is also a member of the HD Committee. I could go on forever about the inequality and hypocrisy surrounding the award of medals and honours in this country but you have heard it all before, suffice to say that the honours system has been severely discredited not just by the disgraceful way the PJM has been dealt with but by the way the great and good appear to consider that the fictitious rules that prevent an ordinary veteran from wearing a medal given to him by a grateful Commonwealth Nation do not apply to such as the likes of Janvrin the private secretary I referred to earlier.

Dr. Howells and Don Touhig plus many other Members of the House have shown an understanding of the need to show flexibility in the acceptance and wear of medals such as the PJM. This is welcome news but I fear that until you gain control over the civil service and remind them that it is Parliament that has the ultimate say in matters such as these we will continue to see stupid decisions made and then reinforced by dishonest arguments by the second rate clerks that infest our civil service. This government and the civil service has achieved what no other has in history, it has completely alienated a huge number of veterans because of its stupidity and obduracy.

I thank you for your continued efforts in this direction and I know that many thousands of my colleagues are also thankful to you. Full information about the PJM and the continuing struggle for justice can be seen by accessing our web site at www.fight4thepjm.org

Please convey my thoughts to the Prime Minister.

Yours aye

John

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Thank you John...for posting Ms Munn's response to Michael Ancram (standard fare - the usual regurgitated, misinformed claptrap based, apparently, upon the principle ' If a lie is repeated enough times, it will become widely accepted as the truth.") .....and thank you yet again for your insightful and articulate 'comment on the points raised' in reply....Well done!

It is much to be hoped that Mr Ancram will indeed relay your thoughts, as requested, to the Prime Minister.


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Paroi...Rasah...Batu Signals Troop.
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Michaels covering letter for your interest, I can just see the smile on his face as he knows just how I would (and did) react to Meg Munns drivel

John




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Point well taken John.....the request for your feedback is unmistakably 'tongue in cheek'.


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...................'Jock'
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Well done John. Brilliantly replied to, you may also wish to use this from the LG if ever needed!

http://www.fight4thepjm.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12373&highlight=crown servant#12373

oh and of course a spokesperson from within the MoD

http://www.fight4thepjm.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1324&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=crown+servant&start=195


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jireland wrote:
Michaels covering letter for your interest, I can just see the smile on his face as he knows just how I would (and did) react to Meg Munns drivel


So can I, John.

And Meg Munn's drivel fairly reflects the drivel of the last three years (in January I 'celebrated' my third anniversary of fighting this campaign and of reading such drivel that is their only way of defending the indefensible).

Barry


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BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Meg Munn.
Please take some time and heed the words from these few lines by Harvey Andrews from a song with the title 'The Soldier'
        "And will the children growing up learn at their mothers knee,
        The story of the soldier who bought their liberty,


The next line has no bearing on our cause so I will not quote it.

Being born in Aug 1959, when our campaign was being faught, I doubt it very much if you will understand what the words and thoughts mean.

PLEASE LISTEN, TAKE NOTE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT WE SAY. Politics have no part in our fight for the PJM.

Phredd


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Post Mcdangles letter to Meg Munn. 
The following is a letter sent by me to Meg Munn, at the FCO through my MP.

I have been advised by the FCO that one of the persons involved in the recommendation to wear the PJM termporarily in Malaysia during their 50th. Anniversary celebrations was none other than Meg Munn who does not appear to have any sympathy with us British veterans.



22nd. January, 2008.



Meg Munn MP,
Parliamentary Under Secretary of State,
Foreign and Commonwealth Office,
London.
SW1A 2AH.



Your Ref – 51997 and 52559.



Dear Minister,


PINGAT JASA MALAYSIA.


I refer to your letter dated 5th. December, 2007, under the above references.

The non-wearing rule of the Pingat Jasa Malaysia has created a great deal of controversy and the reasons given for this by the government, no doubt on the advice of civil servants, is somewhat confusing and difficult to comprehend.


With this in mind I would like to ask you the following questions -

1. You have quoted Section 14 of the 1969 Regulations Part A, which states that persons who have retired from the service of the Crown remain subject to these regulations so far as concerns the acceptance of Orders, decorations or medals offered in respect of services rendered before their retirement.

 this section refers solely to the acceptance and not to the wear of a medal quote – ‘in so far as acceptance of Orders, decorations or medals’ unquote - so how can you justify using this to prevent the wearing of the PJM in line with the London Gazette dated 3rd. May, 1968.

2. You have stated quite categorically that Part A of the 1969 Regulations are the rules which you rely on to make decisions on this matter.

 why can British citizens who are deemed to be Servants of the Crown under Part A of these regulations and who are subject to Section 14, not be subjected to Section 2, particularly as it relates to a letter from Her Majesty’s Private Secretary.


3. You said that arguments for exceptions to our rules are considered with care to preserve the integrity of the honours system. The PJM was, we are advised, given permission by Her Majesty the Queen to be worn in Malaysia on a temporary basis in August and September, 2007.

 can you explain why the integrity of the honours system has to be preserved or considered with care in relation to the PJM when Her Majesty the Queen, the ‘font of all honour’ has already been involved and given her most gracious permission for it to be accepted and for a temporary period only, to be worn.

4. You said that the UK system guards against the proliferation of foreign medals.

 how many medals create a proliferation. Many of the Malaya/Borneo campaign veterans who are British citizens have only one medal, the PJM, or in some cases only two medals which includes the GSM.


5. In paragraph four of your letter you refer to the ‘long-standing five year rule’ being a bar to allowing foreign awards from being accepted.

 Her Majesty the Queen has most graciously given permission for the PJM to be accepted, so once this acceptance has been granted the long-standing five year rule can no longer be used in connection with the PJM. It has been considered and an ‘exception’ we are told, was made to this rule, so how can you keep quoting this rule for use in another matter such as the wearing of the PJM.

6. In paragraph five of your letter you reiterate the double medal rule and say that if a recipient of a foreign award has received a British award for the same service permission will not be given to wear a foreign award.

 do you not believe that this statement by you is a complete contradiction of the Rules for Foreign awards and medals deposited by the Right Hon Jack Straw MP in the House of Commons Library in November, 2005, and I quote ‘Permission will not be given for UK citizens to accept a foreign award if they have received, or are expected to receive, a UK award for the same services’ unquote. Have you not misrepresented what this rule actually says by altering it to read ‘permission will not be given to wear a foreign medal’ when it mentions nothing about wear of a foreign medal.

 You are aware that some British citizens did not receive a British award along with the PJM so how can you justify the double-medal rule when doing so is discrimination against some veterans which the rule does not apply to.

 the double-medal rule is a retrospective rule so how can it be used.


In conclusion I would like to ask a question about our Parliamentary Democracy; a democracy which is being held up as an example to the world by the present government; a democracy which we have been told is operated by open and transparent government.

So can you tell me how you can justify using the following explanation in paragraph two of your letter, in particular lines four, five and six which I quote ‘the HD Committee has maintained that permission to wear the medal will not be granted. The HD Committee does not plan to address this issue again’.

The Honours and Decorations Committee does not, as far as I am concerned, make rules or give orders which affect the freedom or the lives of UK citizens. Non-statutory rules or other orders from this committee are not acceptable and should not be accepted by the government which the people of this country has elected to govern on their behalf and for a government official in a senior position to make such a statement is outrageous.

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Brilliantly put McDangle.... brilliantly put....


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...................'Jock'
Paroi...Rasah...Batu Signals Troop.
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'Jock' Fenton wrote:
Brilliantly put McDangle.... brilliantly put....


I concur.........text book summary....


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