I asked a straight forward question and received today a 'round the houses reply'

Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:42:17 +0100 (BST)
From: "JOHN COOPER"
Subject: Pingat Jasa Malaysia
To: ceremonial@cabinet-office.x.gsi.gov.uk
Dear Mr Brennan or Ms Pengelly

I am asking two simple questions of you, if you cannot answer this please pass on to someone that can.

1> Did Her Majesty The Queen, actually sign a document herself, barring ex Service Personnel from wearing The Pingat Jasa Malaysia

if so

2> When was this document signed, ie date, and where would this document be located

cc Sir Michael Lord MP Central Suffolk

Yours sincerely

John Cooper

I followed this up with............

Sirs

Freedom of Information Act 2000

I have been denied the right as a citizen of The United Kingdom the following information:

a> Has Her Majesty The Queen signed a document PREVENTING 35000 ex UK Malaysian War Veterans from WEARING The Pingat Jasa Malaysia Medal. If Her Majesty has signed this document can you please inform me where this document is currently being held and the date the document was signed.

b> If Her Majesty has not signed this document then who promulgated the order for 35000 ex UK Malaysian War Veterans on Her Majesty's behalf not to wear this medal

I would rather The Secretariat of The Honours Committee not to reply to this letter but an independent adjudicator to do so. If there should be any difficulty in answering my request would you please state to me what rights of appeal I have and to whom I should address my enquiry too

Thank you

Yours sincerely

John Cooper

What on earth does and transmitted in the usual way mean? The Queen either signed the order or did someone sign on her behalf???? By proxy?

The date of signing was 21st December 2005 so why did we all have to wait another 5 weeks to be told this?

The reverse of the letter is just the usual blah! blah


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John,

Once again they have not answered the question on 'who authorised the non-wearing of the PJM?'

They say 'I can inform you that Her Majesty the Queen's approval of the recommendations put forward by the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and medals..........'

The recommendation was that The Queen exempt the PJM from the two long standing (sic) rules so that it can be accepted.

This further strengthens my suspicion that Her Majesty the Queen did not refuse the PJM to be worn by British Citizens and that this rule was made by an unelected member of the Civil Service and if so it is highly irregular and bordering on a deliberate illegal act against British Citizens.

My other suspicions on this is that the Queen is our Constitutional Head and cannot make laws or rules against British Subjects unless they are made in the legal and democratic manner through Her Ministers - our Parliament.

It gets curiouser and curiouser.

John, I would like to use this document in its entirety for my visit to the Scottish Parliament. Can you give your permission and email it to me.

Andy

Yes of course you can I will email both pages to you later today

Herewith a reply to Ms Pengelly

Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:03:32 +0100 (BST)
From: "JOHN COOPER"
Subject: Re: Pingat Jasa Malaysia
To: ceremonial@cabinet-office.x.gsi.gov.uk

Your Ref FOI245648

Dear Mr Brennan or Ms Pengelly

I would like to thank Ms Pengelly for her letter of 18th Oct and received today on the subject below.

I asked two SIMPLE questions, I have received a categorical answer to item #2, now what does Item #1 mean I can inform you that Her Majesty The Queen's approval of the recommendations put forward by The Committee on The Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals was transmitted in the usual way

So back to Question #1 quite simply [i]'Did Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II ACTUALLY SIGN THIS DOCUMENT IN HER OWN HAND?' Yes or No?[/i]
If Her Majesty did sign this document could I have a copy please, if I am not permitted to view this document under The Freedom of Information Act 2000 will you advise me as to my statutory rights in advising Why Not and what appeal procedures are in place .

Thank you

Yours sincerely

John Cooper
cc Sir Michael Lord MP Central Suffolk



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This is typical political clap trap! They are not saying yes and niether are they saying no, both positive answers would then lay bare their infidelities.

It is a typical type of non answer in order to avoid the ramifications that a positive answer might bring upon them. If you watch question time on Thursday nights you will see this tactic used all the time. From this I would suggest that HM did not sign any document saying no she merely indicated her assent to the governments very carefully drafted response to the award. I bet she thought as most sensible MP's did that permission to accept meant that we could wear it.

We will not be showing any discourtesy to HM when we wear the medal only contempt for the political system that holds power in this country.

Regards
John

If under the FoI Act the suits refuse me sight of HM own signature on this document I will take it as read that HM did not sign that document. I wonder why they make life so difficult for themselves and everyone else.

They complain that they are inundated with mail, well HMG you brought it upon yourselves and here is a typical example!

You ain't seen nothin' yet...........................


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Well I can guarantee this much George that I will ensure that justice is done at the end of the day. I have just this last week overturned another QUANGO lot, and it isn't hard to do if you are determined.

There is no outfit but ex Malayan/Malaysian Vets more determined to overturn this lot too.

They ain't seen nothin' yet!


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IS THIS THE DIFFERNCE? BETWEEN SIR RICHARD M.C. AND THE RUMOURED TO BE KNIGHTED 'BECKS', ONE PLAYS FOR ENGLAND,T'OTHER WHERE MONEY IS OR DON'T KNOW COS ITS HONOURS IN CONFIDENCE SORRY DAAVID,LIKE YOU REALLY.

George F wrote:

John,

Their next line of defence, will be the 'Honours in Confidence' cabinet office clause to keep veterans prying eyes from ever seeing them for 50 years.

Yes George they have tried everything and will keep trying everything to prevent them telling those who have been denied the right to wear the PJM who actually gave the 'order' that it cannot be worn. But, they have acted unlawfully and this they cannot hide. They are now hiding behind 'Royal Prerogative' but as you put it in an earlier post, this does not apply to civilians ie. The Queen cannot make rules against civilians without them being heard in our elected Parliament and the proper procedures for lawmaking followed, as she is our Constitutional Head of Government.

John Cooper wrote:

The reverse of the letter is just the usual blah! blah

John,

I'd be very interested to see page 2 if you have time to post it or email it.

Many thanks, Barry


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BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia

Side 2 from EP Barry

Again sorry re quality, I have had to photograph reverse of document


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John Cooper wrote:

Side 2 from EP Barry

John,

If ever you have the time, it would be interesting to take up Eleri's invitation offered on Page 2 to contact her. The question that begs is on page 1: "What exactly does 'was transmitted in the usual way' mean?" When writing, I know you won't forget to include her reference ... wouldn't want a rejection slip on a mere technicality!

Eleri is on R&R at the mo' but I think we have the name of her locum somewhere.

Barry


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BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia

Eleri Pengelly is out of the office until Monday 27 November. If you need to speak to someone about the honours list please contact Gary Rogers on 020 7276 2081. If you need to speak to someone about civilian medals please contact Moira Thompson on 020 7276 2728. For any other queries please contact Sandra Wilson on 020 7276 2772.

[quote="BarryFJohn,

If ever you have the time, it would be interesting to take up Eleri's invitation offered on Page 2 to contact her. The question that begs is on page 1: "What exactly does 'was transmitted in the usual way' mean?" When writing, I know you won't forget to include her reference ... wouldn't want a rejection slip on a mere technicality!

Eleri is on R&R at the mo' but I think we have the name of her locum somewhere.

Barry[/quote]

Barry

I have already done so, there are two letters with two reminders on Eleri's desk from me, to be fair I give them all one month to reply, if no reply, then another missile or should that be missive sent. I have them all logged and am keeping all for a rainy day, but being the ever optimist the sun is gonna shine on all of us at the end of the month as it should have done from the beginning. I am not letting any of these suits rain on my parade!


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John Cooper wrote:

I have already done so, there are two letters with two reminders on Eleri's desk from me, to be fair I give them all one month to reply, if no reply, then another missile or should that be missive sent. I have them all logged and am keeping all for a rainy day, but being the ever optimist the sun is gonna shine on all of us at the end of the month as it should have done from the beginning. I am not letting any of these suits rain on my parade!

Positive thinking, John! Great stuff.

In my previous email I was just checking to see if clarification had been sought for those precise words "transmitted in the usual way" - that is a classic example of silly, mean-spirited, civil service-speak, of their obfuscation, an d of their myths. They did not answer your question as to did the Queen sign the PJM Recommendation and they had to invent words like that to avoid saying 'signed' or 'verbally agreed' or ... 'neither ... we've been misleading you and Her all along'.

Recommendations is plural. Therefore the Cabinet Office are confirming that the Queen did indeed approve the second part of the Ministerial Statement - the recommendation that the PJM should not be worn by British citizens. I know many PJMers do not accept that because it is tantamount to the Monarch we served poking us in the eye. Either She did ... or the suits are using her as a Human shield.

I have nothing but contempt for these people who spin words to avoid answering what should be a simple question, and one to which you are entitlted to know the answer. Is it a State secret that the Queen signed a document? If so, what happened to Freedom of Information? "Signing" has nothing to do with "frank discussions" of the secretive Committee.

My point is this: If they have to hide the means by which the Queen records Her approval for recommendations that affect my rights, it implies to me that they have involved The Queen in a seriously questionnable process.

Persisting with your questions, John, will eventually clarify this fundamental issue.

Thank you for your continuing support.

Barry


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BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia

Andy

If The Queen did NOT sign this document, who did, who is hiding this under The FoIA, WHY is it being hidden and Joe Bloggs or an MP cannot have sight of the document. Well dear friends someone had best come with an answer and PDQ

Thanks for your answer Andy

I cannot believe that those Malayan/Malaysian Vets that were on parade on Friday in front of The Queen in Hyde Park at the inauguration of a new memorial to our country cousins in NZ, that the Queen knew that SHE had signed an order discriminating against our country cousins.

I really cannot believe that, honest I can't.




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