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Hello sailor: Royal Navy finally takes part in gay pride
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Is it Jack Tar or Jaquie Tar

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Gawd help us all...............



Last edited by John Cooper on Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Last edited by ro5=6372 on Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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There is absolutely no hope at all for the RN. Looking for the golden rivet takes on a whole new meaning and I suppose there will be no more march pasts only mincing pasts. As well as abolishing the tot in the 70's successive governments have denigrated such a fine service over recent times. It is little wonder that getting the matter of the PJM settled is so difficult. There is so much concern about the rights of obscure and marginal groups in the UK that they cannot acknowledge the basic rights and justice that is owed to Borneo/ Malay veterans. All I can say again is shame on you Tony Blair and your misguided henchmen.

Ivor Rich ex RN Borneo/Malay Veteran 63/65

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George

I think you ought to consider sending that post above as a letter to The Rt Hon Des Browne MP so that he may explain the reasons, that should cause more embarrassment!


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Last edited by ro5=6372 on Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:27 pm; edited 2 times in total
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George F wrote:
In fact gays who have suffered discrimination in HM forces in the past had a case and have a point.


George, that Guardian article stated "In 1998 the gay rights group Stonewall took up these four cases and mounted a legal challenge to the armed forces' "no gays" policy. At the time there was no Human Rights Act and although judges in the high court and the court of appeal said the ban was not justified, they had no jurisdiction to overturn it.

The fight went all the way to the European court, where the case succeeded, forcing the Labour government to lift the ban. The armed forces introduced a new code of sexual conduct in 2000."

That sounds very much like the PJM position ...

1. We've been banned from wearing it (no matter how they try and cover themselves by saying it is not policed);

2. We've been discriminated against by the Head of the Commonwealth (probably against her better judgement - but the Defence Secretary has written to me to tell me it was the Queen's decision) by saying Aussies can wear the PJM, Kiwis can wear the PJM, Brits cannot;

3. We've been discriminated against by the Head of State of the United Kingdom because the Cabinet Office tell us that while She, the Queen, has banned Single Nationality Brits from wearing the PJM, She has allowed Dual Nationality British citizens to wear it.

I have no doubt at all that the non-policing wink and a nod statement is the Government’s way of trying to keep out of court. But a ban is a ban … and I think they have failed to cover their deceitful backs.

They’ve discriminated against Single Nationality Brits for the two reasons mentioned above.

The Hague … hmmm … never been there so it would be a great trip!

Barry


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BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Will those who have posted messages that contain unacceptable words referring to gays, please edit their posts.

Whatever your and my feelings about gays, this Forum is not the place to 'have a go'.

Many thanks,

Barry


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George,

A big YES to that!

Bob Bryant

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BarryF wrote:


3. We've been discriminated against by the Head of State of the United Kingdom because the Cabinet Office tell us that while She, the Queen, has banned Single Nationality Brits from wearing the PJM, She has allowed Dual Nationality British citizens to wear it.



Barry, what document does this pop up in please? The bit about Dual citizens being able to wear?


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from the HD Committee and its decision.
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George F wrote:
I do believe on the PJM issue the HD committee and HMG would collaspe like a deck of cards if they were threatened by an embarrassing Human rights court case. Indeed we must check this out, it may be the only way we can get the mandarians in Whitehall to fall on their swords regards the PJM issue.


I agree, George. The bit in that newspaper article "At the time there was no Human Rights Act and although judges in the high court and the court of appeal said the ban was not justified, they had no jurisdiction to overturn it." is really quite relevant to the PJM. I believe the PJM issue would fall into that category whereby the ban on wearing the medal might be seen to be unjust but there is no way in UK law to tackle the suits about a decision made within the Imperial Honours System.

But I now think there is a discrimination issue which can be challenged.

Barry


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John Feltham wrote:
Barry, what document does this pop up in please? The bit about Dual citizens being able to wear?


It's here, in a letter to Hamish:





The Cabinet Office oversees these Honours issues and so I believe their letters are authoritative. Wrong, but authoritative!

Barry


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George F wrote:
I dont consider this letter authorative, and I will give you my reason why.

No1) It is only a personal letter by a third rate secretary from the cabinet office to one single veteran living in Australia so as to put Hamish off bothering the Cabinet office about the PJM medal any more.


I think it is authoritative. Eleri Pengelly is the Deputy Ceremonial Officer in the key Cabinet Office Ceremonial Secretariat, i.e. she is one step below the Main Man, Mr Denis Brennan - Head of the Ceremonial Secretariat. And when she writes to one person setting out her Department's views on an Honour, that policy statement is something that can be questionned.

In any event, it gives us the right to challenge the Government on the whole question of discrimination. I maintain that that letter states that there is one rule for British citizens (Dual Nationality and Brit taxpayers) and another for British citizens (Single Nationality and Brit taxpayers). The Government doesn't like it when we talk about taxpayers in revolt and lining up to sue them. They're still smarting over the Boston Tea Party!

It's Ms Eleri Pengelly, by the way ... I was confused as well.

All the best,

Barry


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George F wrote:
Barry there is one way to find out if the letter is 100% authorative. Write and ask Denis Brennan your lawyer needs clarification regards the authority of the letter, as you wish to use it in a human rights PJM case against HMG.


I'd like to get my Irish passport first! Can anybody apply? I'm Brit/Eng but I'm perfectly happy to be something else if it gives me an edge over those who issue out-dated and discredited Imperial claptrap and make me feel disenchanted and disgusted with my UK Domicile and Brit/Eng nationality (to say nothing of the taxes!).

If I pose that question, it will be to a court. It is a serious question that is a microcosm of the mean-minded, unjust, and crassly stupid PJM recommendation concocted by a bunch of people who are totally out of touch with the real world in which we veterans have to live and our Armed Forces seemingly have to continue to die.

Barry


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Last edited by ro5=6372 on Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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