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Formal wearing of PJM Medal
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I have said all along that it is a load of Bolleaux that the UK Govt are/have intervened in this award. It is an award by a foreign Govt to recognise an achievement, that was in ridding its country from an oppressor.

The UK Govt has SOD ALL to do with this award other than issuing the names of those entitled to receive and WEAR this honour. When writing to those on the HD Committee would you all somehow stress this IMPORTANT point.

If that same Govt gave you a brand new PROTON car made in Malaysia you would accept it with pride and drive around in it, the same goes for this award, wear it with pride and STUFF HM Govt here in the UK!!!!!!!!! Evil or Very Mad


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Post Re: When is formal not formal? 
BarryF wrote:

The opinions we have received, that 'formal' might mean "OK by us, but don't quote us chaps", might lead some into a false sense of security.


There is a law in Australia, which was used a few months ago, prohibiting the wearing of medals and decorations which one is not entilted to. Except those of deceased relatives, in which case, they may be worn, but on the right breast.

I have thought that I might march on the 2007 Anzac Day March, holding the PJM up in the air in my left hand, as I march alongside Aussie diggers wearing their PJMs.

Why the 2007 March? Well it took nearly a year for that disgraceful committee to make that disgraceful decision - how long will it take the pin strip suits, aided by Sir Humphrey Appleby's son, to distribute the PJM?


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from the HD Committee and its decision.
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George F wrote:
Wear the gong and be dammed, and anyone opens his mouth to complain, give him a Belfast uppercut.

In the meantime I thinik we should all enjoy ourselves gettinjg stuck into the bunch of jerks. Afterall they cannot stop the medal being issued now.

George


Not in Australia. Wearing medals that you're not entitled to is a serious offence. The RSL wouldn't put up with it.

Indeed, they'd be the one's to take you to court.

On your second point - go to it.


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Iceni has raised an important point because we do not want anybody doing anything illegal. I would comment as follows:

1) There is a world of difference between wearing a medal that you are entitled to and wearing one that you not entitled to (we are entitled to the PJM).

2) It is my understanding that civvies can only be 'caught n marshalled' if they wear a British gong to which they are not entitled (NB that does not apply to foreign gongs) - not if they wear one in the wrong order or in the wrong place on their pyjamas. The UK law on false representations and the Army Act 1955 address flagrant abuse of dodgy (i.e. not entitled) Brit medal-wearing - particularly if a pecuniary advantage is gained. Other than that, civvies are unlikely to find themselves in trouble no matter what they wear and so they can do what they like. I understand the situation is the same 'down under'.

2) The recent case in Oz was about a Paul Warren McCarthy who allegedly wore medals that had not been conferred on him in order, allegedly, to achieve an advantage. If true, that is despicable - no wonder they went after him after the catalogue of alleged lies.

I think that George was referring to the right of a civilian to wear whatever he or she likes so long he or she is entitled to receive the award and so long as they do not do it to mislead or for pecuniary or any similar advantage.

Here is an extract from the Australian Services Assistance Centre:

"Wearing of Commemorative Medals (by private individuals) : The following is an extract from 'Sabretoche', The Journal of the Military Historical Society of Australia, Vol X1X, April 1978, No 2. (page 129):

From the number of inquires, there is obviously misunderstanding or lack of knowledge presently causing confusion, about what AWARDS, private individuals may wear. In a nutshell, an individual, (in other than Uniform) may wear any award, Foreign, private (1E Club or Association) etc, that He or She has been awarded; there is no law on what may be worn, except of course for falsely wearing awards or medals, although there is a suggested order of procedure of wearing awards. A private citizen is not even bound by these rules of precedence and could wear his VC. at the end of his Service medals, without breaking the law. The Uniform automatically relate to the wearing of any awards to these regulations covering the wearing of a uniform. [sic]"

"falsely wearing awards or medals" refers, I think, to wearing medals that have not been conferred on you, or with false pretenses, misrepresentation, etc.

And so, until somebody tells me otherwise, I am very comfortable that a civilian can wear the PJM to which he or she is entitled, even though they do not have 'formal' permission to do so, without fear of prosecution so long as they do not do so 'falsely'. Uniformed personnel must obey the rules attaching (poor pun!) to their uniform.

Personally, I shall not wear my PJM until it is wearable - but I shall defend the right of others so to do so long as they remain within the law.

http://www.asacaustralia.com/medals.htm


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Iceni wrote:

Not in Australia. Wearing medals that you're not entitled to is a serious offence. The RSL wouldn't put up with it.

Indeed, they'd be the one's to take you to court.


Quite right, too. I'm a great defender of Brit Medals Policy ... it's the interpretation of them by the British HD Committee that has gone wrong with the PJM.

But, having spoken with a mate of mine, I understand that you should have no reservations (other than the obvious ones) about wearing your PJM in Oz (when you eventually get it!). You are entitled to it. What they're after are those who wear medals not conferred on them. I quote "There is no way we'd go for a bloke, in civvies, wearing the Malaysian medal on Anzac or Remembrance Day. He's entitled to it." He knew I was talking about British citizens with dual Oz citizenship who have not been given 'formal' permission to wear the medal.


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BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Post Intergity My Bum 
The letter from the Cabinet Office, Ceremonial Secretariat, dated 2-2-06 and signed by someone called Eleri Pengelly, Deputy Ceremonial Officer, states in reference to the Pingat Jasa Medal - it would not be appropriate for the medal to be worn - to ensure the integrity of the UK Honours system is maintained - and disregarding the system for the PJM would compromise previous awards and the integrity of the system. I am absolutely raging at these remarks and have been popping blood pressure pills ever since.
What integrity is this terminally useless twat (TUT) talking about. Our paper recently headed NEW BLOW TO BLAIR'S CASH FOR HONOURS and stated that Tony Blair had suffered a humiliating defeat in his latest attempt to hand peerages to cronies in exchange for cash. Stockbroker Barry Townsley has been dropped from Downing Street's list of new peers following a row with the Lords' honours watchdog. Mr. Townsley was singled out for the Lords after giving £6000 to Labour funds and pledging up to £1.5 million for one of Mr. Blair's pet projects, City Academies. Plaid Cymru MP Adam Price last night said 'The link between political donations and honours under this government is so blatant I am amazed they have not simply published a price list'. So there we have it, so called integrity in a system that prevents the PJM from being worn and the arrogant, self centred and sanctimonious demeaning of the Malaysian Honour of the PJM to veterans for their active service in the jungle against a foe who had cut their teeth fighting in the jungle against the Japanese Army during World War II. None of them had to line up at the end of a patrol and check a mates bottom for leeches every night - not the same mate every night and not in the least enjoyable, I may add! They look after their own though and Mrs. Windsor's son wears parachute wings which he was awarded after one jump whilst the rest of us had to train for a month and complete eight jumps to get our wings. As for medals worn by this disfunctional family, the least said the better. I have just had a cold shower but I am still boiling. How dare they insult The King of Malaysia and the Malaysian Government and good people of Malaysia in this manner. They have no authority whatsoever over the PJM and should be told to keep their big nebs out and look to their own lack of integrity. Get rid of them all I say. PS. Dumfermline and West Fife in Scotland recently held a bye election in which Labour held a majority of 10,000 but they got stuffed by the Lib Democrats so the tide is turning, here at least. I would advise them not to try and stop me from wearing the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal - I am sure even by the time I get it I will still be ready for them - Hey JOCK, how about a few boxing lessons?

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Mcdangle, pal!

...I'm unsure if I am the specific 'Jock' to whom you are applying for 'a boxing lesson'??...In a MUCH younger day I did box a wee bit...out of the Sparta Club in Edinburgh...but I'm afraid that I am long since relegated to fighting all my battles with the pen and would regretfully suggest that you make application elsewhere...I enjoyed your submission and sincerely hope you will continue to 'sink the wellie' (figuratively speaking!) as frequently as possible.

Regards.............'Jock' Fenton

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We should be allowed to wear this medal with pride like our good friends the Aussies and Kiwis. The medal was awarded with true heart from the Malaysian Government. This is not a medal awarded for several visits to the supermarket or standing in an NHS Dental queue, but unfortunately this government treats this as such. They are quite happy to send our troops to an unjust campaign in Iraq with a wave of the hand and little feeling. Wear this medal with pride along side our other medals, what are the beurocrats going to do ? "lock you up"
Doug Friend mbe

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dartmoor wrote:
We should be allowed to wear this medal with pride like our good friends the Aussies and Kiwis . . . Wear this medal with pride along side our other medals, what are the beurocrats going to do ? "lock you up"
Doug Friend mbe

Welcome to the web site, Doug. You are right. We should wear the PJM with pride alongside our Aussie and Kiwi friends and former comrades-in-arms.

dartmoor wrote:
This is not a medal awarded for several visits to the supermarket or standing in an NHS Dental queue, but unfortunately this government treats this as such.


And, yes, the HD Committee seems to be totally unaware that a VC was won by a Gurkha over there. I've also been sent a wonderful story about a GC that was won during The Emergency - I'll post those stories, too.

We're going to fight on for justice - for ourselves and for our Malaysian friends.


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Post Yahoo, I'm Back! 
Thanks for the help in getting me logged in again. I do not know what I was doing wrong but it seems it is all OK now. Apologies to Jock about the boxing thingy - I meant Barry who had been thumped, sorry out-boxed in the ring, by a KOSB. Also, apologies all for my heading Intergity instead of Integrity. My only excuse is that I was seething and typing through a red mist after reading that Ceremonial Secretariat letter stating that the wearing of the PJM would compromise previous awards and the integrity of the system. I really wish I could use a few choice expletives. On the subject of an MP taking up our fight further now we have a number of them on board, please consider my MP David Mundell (Con) who has fought on our behalf (Kings Own Scottish Borderers) since day one. I sent an email to Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London (I think he still is) generally sympathising with him for falling foul of an unelected quango, just like us (with tongue in cheek). No reply as yet.

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Post Re: Yahoo, I'm Back! 
mcdangle wrote:
Thanks for the help in getting me logged in again.

No problem, mcdangle - it's great to see you back. We need support like yours.

mcdangle wrote:
Apologies to Jock about the boxing thingy - I meant Barry who had been thumped, sorry out-boxed in the ring, by a KOSB.

Shorncliffe, welter-weight final, last minute of the last of three rounds, I was streets ahead, natch, and was mentally polishing the silver when that KOSB wasn't (polishing the silver). Very undignified. But it taught me a lesson and one I'm applying to this fight ... don't get into a fight unless you think you can win it, but you haven't won until the last bell rings out. We can win this fight - and the bell will signal our victory.

mcdangle wrote:
consider my MP David Mundell (Con) who has fought on our behalf (Kings Own Scottish Borderers) since day one.

I see from our Check out your MP page that your MP was an initiator of an Early Day Motion which was signed by my MP, Richard Benyon. I shall ask my MP to have a word with DM and to start another EDM - that's something we can all ask our MPs to do.


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Post Veteran's Agency 
I have just sent this email to the Veteran's Agency.
Dear Sirs
Whilst acknowledging that the MOD, and one therefore assumes by default of association the Veteran's Agency, is denying all and any responsibility or involvement with the assessment and subsequent issue of the PJM, I nevertheless believe that there is one area of this topic which the Agency should be able to answer. Indeed, given that it is a matter of some concern to Veterans, I feel that it is incumbent upon the Agency to solve the riddle - "just what is meant by permission to wear the PJM will not formally be given?"
I have contacted the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Defence and many other leading figures but so far not only has my query not been answered - it has not even been acknowledged. Could the Agency please talk to the FCO and get a definitive statement as to what is meant by "formal permission"?
Yours
Gerald Law (ex RAF Borneo veteran


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Post Medal News letter page 
The attached letter appears in the current edition of Medal News. I'm not sure if the Geoffrey Johnson Smith who wtote it is the same guy who was a TV journalist before becoming an MP. My response is also attached.
GerryL

MEDAL NEWS March 2006 43


I do not agree with Colonel Ashley Timson's
assertion in your October issue that all claims
for retrospective commemoratives like the Pingat
Jasa Malaysia should be lumped together, i.e.
approve one, approve the lot - but that all cases
should be judged on individual merits and in
prevailing circumstances which, I understand,
to be the current policy of the Honours and
Decorations’ Committee.
However, I do share his views on being
perturbed at the proliferation of “bought” medals
appearing on marching veterans’ chests especially
so on Remembrance Day parades.
Certain commercial mints actually say in
their publicity material that their wearing has
been sanctioned by the MoD. This is certainly not
the case according to recent letters I have received
from the Ministry, which deplore this practice and
telling offending companies to cease forthwith
making these statements or any instructions
pertaining to their being worn on any occasion.
I can understand confusion of veterans which
has led to this malpractice in the past owing to
the lack of positive instructions but now this
situation has been highlighted there is no excuse.
I am hoping that parade organisers do what
they can to ensure the ruling is observed next
Remembrance.
Geoffrey Johnson Smith


Dear Editor
The letter in the current issue of Medal News from Geoffrey Johnson Smith raises some interesting points. Firstly, the Pingat Jasa Malaysia is not a commemorative medal. The word Jasa is Malay for service, so the PJM is actually the Malaysian Service Medal. Commemorative medals consist of Jubilee and Coronation medals - struck to commemorate a single event. The PJM is the Malaysian equivalent of the British GSM and awarded for similar service. On this matter, the way in which the British veterans have been treated is nothing short of scandalous as they have not been treated as equals with the other Commonwealth veterans.
Which brings me on to Mr Johnson Smith's views on the wearing of "bought" medals on Remembrance Parades. I neither condemn nor condone this practice, but I must ask what business is it of the MoD what a veteran wears on this annual parade? The veterans (some 10 000 at last year's Whitehall parade) head the nation's remembrance for those who did not return from a long list of conflicts throughout the years, and still ongoing. The only way that these veterans can display the range of service given to the nation is by the medals they wear on their chests. Obviously it is more meaningful if those medals are bona fide awards, but given the Governments lack of even-handedness over the PJM, and other recent matters of a similar type, is it any wonder that the business of commemorative medals is so well supported?
Who will police the wearing of medals at Horse Guards Parade every November? And will there also be rules governing dress and haircuts? The veterans who parade, at their own expense, every year, do so out of a heartfelt act of remembrance. The day that we legislate who can and cannot march in remembrance of our departed comrades will be a sad day indeed. As far as I am aware, the ex-Servicemen who parade are now civilians and so no longer subject to MoD rules. They seek to make no gain from wearing their medals, bought or otherwise, so what laws are they breaking?
We are in danger of allowing bureaucratic protocol, established by unelected quangos, from interfering with the fundamental right of an ageing veteran to participate in the Annual Remembrance Parade - is that what they sacrificed their lives for? I hope not!
Gerald Law (ex RAF Borneo veteran, who will wear his PJM with pride alongside his GSM)


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Post Veteran's Agency 
Below is what I sent off at the weekend to the Veteran's Agency, and their totally inadequate response - they merely refer me to Fred Burden. Below that is my response to their response. There seems little point in having a Veteran's Agency which - 1. Does not/cannot/will not act on behalf of Veterans; and 2. employs people who are incapable of reading a simple communication. No wonder that the not so Civil Servants have got themselves into such a mire over the PJM.

Dear Mr Law
Thank you for your email.
If you would like to contact Mr Burden at the address below, he should be able to answer your enquiry.
Mr Fred Burden
Membership Secretary
National Malaya & Borneo Veterans Association
44, Meadgate Avenue
Great Baddow
Chelmsford
CM2 7LQ
Tel No. 01245 495238
Thanking you
Jane Povey
Veterans Advice Team
-----Original Message-----
From: GLAW686677@aol.com [mailto:GLAW686677@aol.com]
Sent: 04 March 2006 13:26
To: help@veteransagency.gsi.gov.uk
Subject: Pingat Jasa Malaysia

Dear Sirs
Whilst acknowledging that the MOD, and one therefore assumes by default of association the Veteran's Agency, is denying all and any responsibility or involvement with the assessment and subsequent issue of the PJM, I nevertheless believe that there is one area of this topic which the Agency should be able to answer. Indeed, given that it is a matter of some concern to Veterans, I feel that it is incumbent upon the Agency to solve the riddle - "just what is meant by permission to wear the PJM will not formally be given?"
I have contacted the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Defence and many other leading figures but so far not only has my query not been answered - it has not even been acknowledged. Could the Agency please talk to the FCO and get a definitive statement as to what is meant by "formal permission"?
Yours
Gerald Law (ex RAF Borneo veteran)

You have totally missed the point of my email! I am fully aware of the task that Fred Burden has undertaken in co-ordinating the applications for the PJM - I am a member of the NMBVA. What I am asking the Veteran's Agency to do, on behalf of VETERANS is to give us a distinct and definitive answer to what is meant by "permission will not formerly be given to wear the PJM". As Mr Burden did not originate this statement, I very much doubt whether he can explain what it means.
Gerald Law (Frustrated ex RAF Borneo veteran and getting more frustrated every time he tries to get a straight answer to a simple question)

GerryL

Fight for the Right to educate Whitehall staff to read properly


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Post Daily Mail 
Just received an email in response to my letter. I have attached it below. Basically they will not cover the story as they do not consider it an exclusive. Perhaps the story of a demented Borneo Veteran running stark naked down Whitehall, with just a rogue Pingat pinned on his penis might get their attention. Any volunteers?

Dear Mr Law,

Thanks for your letter of March 4.

Sadly, this story has been done by other rival papers, which means we
cannot do it as we are always after Exclusives.

It was good to hear from you, and if anything else occurs, do email me.

Best Wishes,

Christopher Leake, Defence and Home Affairs Editor

I shall now no longer be using the Daily Mail to wipe my a**e as it is not exclusive enough for my tender quarters.

Fight for the Right to have decent news reporting.


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