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Marion Moore of the Cabinet Office
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Post Marion Moore of the Cabinet Office 
According to the Cabinet Office the five year rule does not apply to Commemorative Medals
We have a document from the Malaysians confirming that the PJM is a Commemorative Medal.
so one of the rules that the suits used against us is now dead.

Honours and Appointments Secretariat

Admiralty Arch
The Mall
London
SW1A 2WH
Telephone: 020 7276 2706
Fax: 020 7276 2766
Email: marion.moore@cabinet-office.x.gsi.gov.uk
Web: www.honours.gov.uk

FOI260821
8 January 2009


Dear Mr Alders

Freedom of Information Act 2000


Thank you for your email of 5 December requesting the following information:

‘Could you please inform me who authorized Sir Robin Janvrin while a Crown Servant to accept and wear a foreign award commemorating an event that was more than five years ago. i.e. The 25th Antigua & Barbuda Anniversary Medal. Or doesn't the Foreign and five year rule apply to commemorative medals?’

Your request for information is being handled under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

I am writing to advise you that following a search of our paper and electronic records, I have established that the information you requested is not held by this Department.

However, outside the terms of the act I can inform you that as the medal you refer to in your email is a commemorative award, and not a campaign award, the ‘five year rule’ does not apply.

I should make it clear though, as stated above, the Cabinet Office does not hold any recorded information relevant to the terms of your request.

If you have any queries about this letter, please contact me. Please remember to quote the reference number above in any future communications.

If you are unhappy with the service you have received in relation to your request or wish to request an internal review, you should write to:

Sue Gray
Director
Cabinet Office
70 Whitehall
London
SW1A 2AS

email: foiteam@cabinet-office.x.gsi.gov.uk

You should note that the Cabinet Office will not normally accept an application for internal review if it is received more than two months after the date that the reply was issued.

If you are not content with the outcome of your internal review, you may apply directly to the Information Commissioner for a decision. Generally, the Commissioner cannot make a decision unless you have exhausted the complaints procedure provided by Cabinet Office. The Information Commissioner can be contacted at:

The Information Commissioner’s Office
Wycliffe House
Water Lane
Wilmslow
Cheshire
SK9 5AF









MARION MOORE
Policy and Appointments Officer

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Twisted Evil

Marion Moore wrote, in a personal letter to me on the 28th August 2007 (from No.10):

You may like to know that the statement in the Gazette of 3 May 1968 was clarified in 1969 by a regulation on the merging of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office that stated " these regulations do not relate to awards of campaign or commemorative war medals"

And (in the same letter):

However as you may now be aware, it has recently been announced that Her Majesty The Queen has agreed that veterans will be allowed to wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia Medal during the Celeberations for Malaysian Independence in Malaysia".

Caron Mason-Mahon wrote, in a personal letter to me (from FCO) dated 17 August 2007:

"Thank you for your letter of 10 August to Tanya Collingridge asking if the temporary arrangement allowing veterans to wear the PJM for a set period has been employed before, in respect of any foreign decorations which have previously been approved for acceptance only by British recipients. I am replying in Tanya's absence. As far as we are aware this arrangement is without precedence and wholly exceptional". This is not surprising since their regulations allow for Unrestricted or Restricted wear and not, "not to be formally worn", ie, an embargo!

This correspondence brings to mind two old sayings:

"The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing".

"A good liar needs a good memory"; (or an efficient staff!)



Last edited by GLOman on Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GLOman wrote:


"The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing".

"A good liar needs a good memory"; (or an efficient staff!)


Could not agree 'Moore', David.

Excellent lobbying by you - and thanks for your continuing support.

Barry


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BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Twisted Evil

Marion Moore wrote:

'Could you please inform me who authorized Sir Robin Janvrin while a Crown Servant to accept and wear a foreign award commemorating an event that was more than five years ago i.e. The 25th Antigua & Barbuda Anniversary Medal.
Or doesn't the Foreign and five year rule apply to commemorative medals?'

'However, outside the terms of the act I can inform you that as the medal you refer to in your email is a commemorative award, and not a campaign award, the ‘five year rule’ does not apply'.

In stating that the 5 year rule does not apply to commemorative medals, it appears that Maid Marion has saved Robin; and perhaps our band of merry men as well!

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Last edited by GLOman on Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Twisted Evil

Now, here is a question.

I was looking through the Veterans UK website to see what was going on. I found that the old chestnut for not permitting the PJM to be worn was still doing service on the MOD Veterans Website:

"Permission to wear the PJM will not, however, formally be given. It is long standing Government policy that non-British medals will not be approved for events or service:

- that took place more than 5 years before initial consideration, or in connection with events that took place in the distant past (e.g. commemorative medals); [not the latest news from MM]
- if the recipient has received a British award for the same service".

Then I had a thought;

Of the Decorations and awards given to, the then Sir Robin Janvrin, which of these awards and/or decorations were given to him directly for services rendered in his capacity as Private Secretary to Her majesty The Queen. Involving as they might, for example, matters concerning the independence of Antigua and Barbadu or other states or matters, in which case, although he may be, presumably as are we, eligible to accept and wear the awarded medal according to Marion Moore, that in so far that the recipient of the Antigua and Barbudan medal, as are the recipients of the PJM, exempt from the five year rule, as both medals are 'commemorative' medals; is he not disqualified under the second rule to wear his AB&I Medal, as are we, to wear our PJM, vide the 2005 revised rules, i.e, "if the recipient has received a British award for the same service? Notwithstanding, of course, the many did not receive the GSM 1962 for their service.

Just a thought!

PS A further thought: It proves, I think, that there are far too many Departments and officials, including the HD in its present form, dealing with Awards of all types, who are completely out of touch, have no meaningful relationship or contact with other relevant Department (a requirement stated in 'How to become a Civil Servant), indeed it seems that the several departments involved treat one another with the same contempt as they appear to treat us.

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David,

You are forgetting that rules apply only when it "suits the suits" and if that doesn't work for them then rules in our favour, only apply in months containing the letter X and then only if it is not raining !!! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Regards,

John



Last edited by Semengo13 on Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Semengo Camp,
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John, me auld M8,

In any the month? in our favour? I'm not sure if it was raining. Don't think so mucker;July 2004, PJM first offered but later rejected; February 2005 produced the 2005 rules with the notorious Part C, and January 31 2006 gave birth to the "Ministerial Statement" "accept but will not be formally worn". Additionally, November 07 was disappointing under Margaret Beckett - the promised review overrunning until Commonwealth Day. Allowed to wear the PJM for 15 days in Malaysia only from August 2007 to save the suits from Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

The bright point of any of the last three + years, whatever the month, is that, what I always think of as the "Great Eight", continued the Fight4 Campaign with, I am sure, the heartfelt support from all members.

Success in"2009"? - "that "suits" me ?"; who knows - keep smiling and hoping, Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Wink

Best wishes,

David



Last edited by GLOman on Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sorry David. Had a senior moment. That Y should have been an X. Sad Rolling Eyes

Now corrected


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Pingat Kami - Hak Kami
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Semengo Camp,
Kuching.
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Exactly, GLOman me owd friend, and remember to keep clear of months which have an 'R' in 'em in case the oyster turns out to be as dead as the dodo some of the suits will soon resemble. Having just returned from a Burns lunch I canna be sure that I am making sense but I sure as Hell know what I mean. With regard to 2009 you seem to be making a prediction, and having imbibed a few drams of the finest malts I too feel something in my water that bodes an end to the nonsense we have had to endure for too long. I raise a glass of the finest 'Dalwhinnie' to the Fight 4 the PJM and all who sail in her.


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Mike Barton
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While there are supporters like John, David and Mike this campaign will continue until we succeed.

I can assure you that there is as much lobbying going on now as there has ever been, and our campaign is entering a new phase. It's not often that three ex-Ministers meet a current Minister in order to further the interests of ex-servicemen and women but that is precisely what has happened in connection with the Fight4thePJM campaign. That is only the start ... 2009 will be a good year.

Barry


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