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PASC Committee meeting
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Post PASC Committee meeting 
I can not find any mention of the PASC-the House of Commons Public Administration Select Committee nor a suitable place to drop it in.
If this is in the wrong place can it please be moved to another place.

Quote :-
    PASC URGES SWEEPING REFORM OF 'ANACHRONISTIC' HONOURS SYSTEM

Report calls for end of 'Empire' Order and new honours to reflect changing country

PASC-the House of Commons Public Administration Select Committee-today attacks the current honours system for being secretive, over-complicated and out of date. In a report entitled 'A Matter of Honour: Reforming the Honours System" (HC 212-I) , PASC says that the system unfairly favours civil servants, diplomats and members of the armed forces, and calls for fundamental reforms in its structure and the way it operates.

The report identifies a number of problems with the present system:

· the title of the Order of the British Empire is described as "anachronistic and insensitive, an inappropriate symbol for today's Britain";

· women and people from ethnic minorities appear to get fewer honours than white men;

· 'automatic' honours for senior civil servants and diplomats simply for doing their job "create a sense of unfairness and undermine the credibility of the system";

· the use of honours as tools of political management by No 10 and others is seen as casting suspicion on the whole system;

· the machinery for making recommendations for honours lacks independence, with civil servants too prominent and too few outsiders;

· knighthoods and damehoods are "redolent of past preoccupations with rank and class".

To overcome these problems, the Committee recommends a radically reformed honours system which would see:

· a much simpler system with only four honours instead of the current 16;

· the replacement of the old British Empire Order with a new Order of British Excellence;

· the end of the Orders that are now given almost exclusively to civil servants and diplomats;

· a phasing-out of knighthoods and damehoods;

· a new Honours Commission which would remove civil servants from the decision-making on honours.

Commenting today, Committee Chairman Tony Wright said:

"Honours are a way for the nation to recognise service and achievement. This is important, which is why the honours system needs to be taken seriously. We need to ensure that it is fit for purpose, which means making changes to it from time to time

"In our view, the system now needs radical and systematic reform, which our recommendations are designed to achieve. These are bold proposals, and we hope the Government will be equally bold in its response to them." unquote.

I can not find a date for this info but assume it is of a recent meeting about the H & D Committee. I asume the outcome would include our case of the PJM.

Phredd


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An interesting observation Phredd can you put a link to the page you found this item please?


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The momentum continues to build..........

Sounds interesting phredd. I assume yoou haven't tracked down the source yet. Where did you find it?

Regards,

John


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Found the link phredd. Part of a much bigger report dated 7th of July 2004. Hope that helps.


http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmpubadm/212/21202.htm


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651 Signal Troop,
Semengo Camp,
Kuching.
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Post PASC 
July 2004, mmmmmm. The era of cash for honours, perhaps not surprising that this report didn't see the light of day; how imprudent it would have been to have destroyed the glittering display in the shop window!

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..



Last edited by ro5=6372 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ro5=6372 wrote:
WOULDN'T IT BE IRONIC,BUT POETIC,IF PART OF THIS ,WAS DUE TO THIS WEBSITE,AND THE HIGHLIGHTENING OF HOW THE WHEELS TURN,GREAT TO SEE 'EM FALL OFF TOO!


Looks likely that this was on the cards before my involvement with the PJM as I never found out about the award of the medal until early 2005 and this Hansard report is dated July 7th 2004. However I am 100% positive that since this PJM Website has been set up that millions now know about the injustices within the system.


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Post PASC 
See recent entries in hansard re PASC:

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wms/?id=2007-06-26b.65.2&s=PASC#g65.3

Hamish

House of LordsGovernment: Strategy and PlanningAll Written Ministerial Statements on 26 Jun 2007
« Previous statement Next statement »

Lord Davies of Oldham (Deputy Chief Whip (House of Lords), HM Household) | Hansard source

My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is today presenting to Parliament a Command Paper providing the Government's response to the Public Administration Select Committee's report Governing the Future published on 6 March 2007 in conclusion to its inquiry into the place of strategy and planning in government.

The Government strongly welcome the PASC report and its support for strategic capability at the centre. The report provides a helpful contribution to promulgating a more strategic approach to policymaking and to ensuring departments are strategically well managed.

Copies of the Command Paper have been placed in the Library for the reference of noble Lords and will be available in the Printed Paper Office.

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John Cooper wrote:
An interesting observation Phredd can you put a link to the page you found this item please?


My item was found here >>>>>> (by my brother) I did not notice how old it was.
http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/public_administration_select_committee/pasc_pn_17_03_04.cfm

but I see it has been found in full now. Well done lads and lasses.

Phredd

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Post Honours 
The Civil service aint going to like this. They'll fight to the finish... which we hope, won't be too long.

Yours award challenged

Arthur

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Post Some reply's from the PASC. 
After my post of 3 Jan 2008 I sent every member of the PASC an e-mail giving some info and my feelings on the treatment from the suits.

These are some of the replys I have had >>>

    From:- Paul Flynn MP
    Thank you for your letter. i do not know the reasons for this decision. I know the military want to restrict the dsipaly of medals to avoid devaluing the currency.
    Paul Flynn MP House of Commons London SW1A OAA
    Dip into now daily blog on paulflynnmp.co.uk. Join the lively comment page or see the 60 videos of local events.

    From:- Ian Liddell_grainger
    I will pass on to the Committee.
    Ian Liddell-Grainger

    From:- Carol Allan
    Dear Mr Boland
    Mr Walker would like to thank you for your email in regards to the Pingat Jasa Malaysia Medal, which has also been forwarded to the Clerk of the Committee for attention.
    Yours sincerely

    From:- Louise Glen
    Thank you for your email, Mr Walker has asked me to reply.
    The issue you raise certainly seems worthy of examination, but unfortunately the Public Administration Select Committee has a fairly full schedule and is not currently looking at policy around military medals.
    May I suggest you contact the Defence Committee about this matter as a way forward, it would certainly fall within their remit, and they may be able to help you further.
    Best wishes,

    From:- Gordon Prentice MP
    Dear Mr Boland,
    Thank you for your email of 4 January about the Pingat Jasa Malaysia Medal.
    I to am very disappointed with the decision and I hope there will be a rethink.
    Yours sincerely

    Gordon Prentice MP


Gentlemen, draw your own conclusions.
Phredd




Last edited by phredd on Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post PASC Replies 
Phredd,

Just a thought; Dr Kim Howells said that ultimately it will be Parliament that decides.

Might I suggest that your send him the summary of the PASC Meeting of 2004 together with the answers you have received from the members at this time. It is possible that he might be able to persuade them to change their minds. Or at least illustrate that others in the past have shared the thoughts that we and many of our MP and other eminent supporters have in this curent situation. Worth a try?

I still believe that Dr Kim Howells is probably our best chance at the moment and worthy of all the support we can give him, and of course Don Touhig and the other MP supporters. Regards,

David

PS: Refer to Defence Committee? Would that mean more correspondence from MOD DS Sec ? Anyway they keep saying it is the FCO's remit to sort, NOT MOD or anyone else. I have to admit that it does evoke a sigh of frustration!

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Post PASC - Fifth Report 
This email has gone to : Dr Kim Howells; Sandra Gidley; Loerly Burt; Dr Andrew Murrison; Sally Keeble;Willie Rennie and Don Touhig; copies to Barry and Jock.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

It is not my intention to be a continual nuisance. However, there have been some points made which I feel may be of interest to you.

The PASC - Fifth Report printed in July 2004, link:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmpubadm/212/212002.htm
appears to have more relevance than I had thought. One of our members wrote to members of the PASC regarding the relevance of theis "Honours and Awards" report to the PJM, and received the following replies:

These are some of the replys I have had >>>

From:- Paul Flynn MP
Thank you for your letter. i do not know the reasons for this decision. I know the military want to restrict the dsipaly of medals to avoid devaluing the currency.
Paul Flynn MP House of Commons London SW1A OAA
Dip into now daily blog on paulflynnmp.co.uk. Join the lively comment page or see the 60 videos of local events.

From:- Ian Liddell_Grainger
I will pass on to the Committee.
Ian Liddell-Grainger

From:- Carol Allan
Dear Mr, Mr Walker would like to thank you for your email in regards to the Pingat Jasa Malaysia Medal, which has also been forwarded to the Clerk of the Committee for attention.
Yours sincerely

From:- Louise Glen
Thank you for your email, Mr Walker has asked me to reply.
The issue you raise certainly seems worthy of examination, but unfortunately the Public Administration Select Committee has a fairly full schedule and is not currently looking at policy around military medals.
May I suggest you contact the Defence Committee about this matter as a way forward, it would certainly fall within their remit, and they may be able to help you further.
Best wishes,

From:- Gordon Prentice MP
Dear Mr. Thank you for your email of 4 January about the Pingat Jasa Malaysia Medal.
I to am very disappointed with the decision and I hope there will be a rethink.
Yours sincerely

Gordon Prentice MP”

MY COMMENTS

Paul Flynn MP. Having stated that he does not know reasons “for this decision” follows this statement by saying “I know the military want to restrict the display of medals to avoid devaluing the currency”. This begs the question “how does he know?” Is it from information supplied by MOD DS Sec? In which case I would personally consider it unreliable – proliferation does seem, to be a civil service pre-occupation as far as the military are concerned. We are talking about one Medal, the PJM, which was conferred by the Agon of Malaysia to the Armed Forces involved in the two conflicts, one medal, which in many cases is the only recognition that the Armed Forces have to show for their service. These personnel, many of whom were National Servicemen who apart from training in the UK and then service in Malaya/Malaysia, would have no opportunity to serve elsewhere to gain a GSM or other medal. I appreciate that many servicemen did not receive a medal for their service, in some cases over 10 years or more before leaving the Services, probably due to having served in the UK or Germany for the whole period of their service; a slightly different case to those who served in Malaya/Malaysia. In sum, regarding proliferation, the idea that a GSM (1918-62) (1962+) if they were eligible (no GSM’s were awarded for this area of operations (between 1960-62) apparently on the grounds of rigour or lack of it) or the PJM awarded by a grateful nation would devalue the currency of medals is, in my opinion, ridiculous.


The other respondents are to be thanked for their replies. I am not naïve enough to believe that the PJM is the only matter which attracts the attention of those in Government.



I am still encouraged to think that the result of the debate was assuring. However, I can reassure both those who support our campaign and those who seem determined to ignore Her Majesty’s edict in the London Gazette and the MOD’s own regulations regarding the wearing of medals after leaving the Service for the sake of retrospectively implemented FCO Departmental Policy, at the behest of the MOD - we continue with our purposeful efforts wholeheartedly.

It would be disgraceful if this matter was resolved simply because those eligible, now in the mid-late sixties, and their seventies and eighties were no longer able to "fight4thepjm" having all, or nealy all, passed away; age itself does not necessarily determine "when we go"! This could be perceived as "emotional blackmail"; that doesn't make it any less relevant.

Yours sincerely,

David Dilley



Last edited by GLOman on Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post PASC - Fifth report. 
GLOman
Thank you for your kind input and emails to our friends.
Your eloquence is far better than mine so I will delete what I had typed ready to go and leave as is.
I just wish I had spent more time with my English than in the bar/naafi Wink
Thanks again
Phredd

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Post PASC Cttee 
Phredd,

It was a bit cheeky of me, but thanks for your kind remarks. I must confess that bars/NAAFI did prove an attraction to me on some occasions. The acronym N.A.A.F.I* (as interpreted by servicemen) does make me relate it to that attitude of those Crown Servants with whom we have been dealing over the last 2+ years in so far as it applies to the PJM!

Regards,

David

(*No Ambition And Finite Interest)

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