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UPDATE ON THE WEARING OF THE PJM
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Post Letter to HD Comittee 
Barry,

SPOT ON! Can we hope, now, that the HD Cttee will relent and allow Sir Robin and the Admiral to retire in peace, while the rest of them retire to their special Stress Rooms provided during the Very Expensive refurbishment of Whitehall and start their rehabilitation and in future act as required by the Civil Service Code? Certainly, the integrity of "the system" is in shatters and that of the HD Committee appears to be very, very bruised! Definitely time for them to call a halt.

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One thing that should be made clear is that as our Queen is NOT the Head of State of Malaysia and therefore any medal issued by them does NOT require the authority of our Queen for its wear in that country...I smell a rat (Sniff, Sniff, or is that 8 rats?)
By the way this is the latest I have received -


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Post The latest PJM thing. 
..



Last edited by MB on Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post Letter to the Star (my) 
Twisted Evil

This has just gone off to the Editor of The Star in Malaysia

Once again the FCO, MOD, Cabinet Office and the HD Committee are insulting our intelligence. Using Her Majesty the Queen as a shield, the Foreign Office, Honours and Protocol have been asked by the Honours and Decorations Committee to lift the ban on wearing the PJM by veterans attending the Merderka. This is a copy of a letter sent to one of our members:

Dear *******

UPDATE ON THE WEARING OF THE PJM

In response to a request from the HD Committee, I am pleased to inform you that The Queen has given her permission for the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal to be worn by veterans during the main independence celebrations in Malaysia. The relevant period covered by this permission is 15 August 2007 to 9 September 2007.

I am copying this letter to other interested parties, and would be grateful if you would disseminate this information further, in particular to those veterans who are travelling to Malaysia later this month.

Yours sincerely,

Tanya Collingridge


Tanya Collingridge
Honours Secretary

This permission is restricted only to those attending the Merderka Celebrations; it does not apply to those British Citizens remaining in the UK who are still not allowed, according to the FCO, MoD, Cabinet Office, and of course the Honours and Decorations Committee to wear the PJM, although we have Her Majesty's permission vide the London Gazette, and the authority of MOD JSP regulations to do so.

This is, I believe designed to present themselves as making a friendly gesture to our Malaysian friends, or perhaps we can say 'Comrades in Arms' and to protect the British High Commissioner from criticism from those veterans and others attending the Independence Celbrations. In the UK our fight goes on. Copying to other interested parties probably means those it is thought may be impressed by this "generous gesture"; the English media and others.

Yours sincerely,

David Dilley (address detail supplied)

Who are they kidding?

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Redcapfred wrote:
One thing that should be made clear is that as our Queen is NOT the Head of State of Malaysia and therefore any medal issued by them does NOT require the authority of our Queen for its wear in that country...I smell a rat (Sniff, Sniff, or is that 8 rats?)
By the way this is the latest I have received -


Don't these people talk a whole load of bo££ocks, there is nothing in that LG article stating that item when the medal was awarded, yet again the goalposts have been moved to suit their own winning ambitions. They are pathetic to say the least Confused


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First of all I do not, for one moment believe HMQ has sanctioned this latest instruction. I believe the FCO, MoD, HD committee or whoever gave the instruction did so simply to protect their own arses from the fallout should there have been top level complaints from Malaysia regarding the lack of respect that British Veterans displayed towards people of Malaysia and the PJM by not wearing a medal which that country had awarded to them.

And secondly should veterans treat the earlier non-wearing instruction with the contempt that it deserves by wearing the PJM it would have highlighted to the rest of the world, the dismal level of respect that veterans have for the HD committee and anybody else who supports the shameful non wearing instruction handed down on 31 Jan 2006.

Hope I am not being too cynical………Cheers, KenN


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NO YOUR NOT,DON'T KNOW WHERE I READ IT,BUT A CLEAR DEFINITION OF CYNISM = THE UNPLEASANT TRUTH.ALL ITS CONFIRMED IN ME ,WITH ALL THE LETTERS DOUBLE DEALING ETC ETC ,IS THAT IF I SEE AN 'EXPERT',MATE ITS BEST TO WALK THE OTHER WAY Shocked

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In a modern democracy, the practice of permitting one selected group of citizens a right, which is arbitrarily denied all other citizens, is considered to be a violation of Civil Right and consequently, is not permitted, by law....you will recall, perhaps, in the not-too-distant past, Public Officials in the Southern United States were in the habit of making such arbitrary rulings regarding the permitted use of public swimming pools, drinking water fountains and public transport seating arrangements.

Perhaps the HD Committee are ensnared in some form of Imperial time-warp?


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John Cooper wrote:
Redcapfred wrote:
One thing that should be made clear is that as our Queen is NOT the Head of State of Malaysia and therefore any medal issued by them does NOT require the authority of our Queen for its wear in that country...I smell a rat (Sniff, Sniff, or is that 8 rats?)
By the way this is the latest I have received -


Don't these people talk a whole load of bo££ocks, there is nothing in that LG article stating that item when the medal was awarded, yet again the goalposts have been moved to suit their own winning ambitions. They are pathetic to say the least Confused


John,

We all agree these people talk a whole load of bo££ocks. So why not try and catch them out. The last two sentences in the above letter states:

" It is the status of the the indivual at the time of service that is pertinent, not the status at the time of the award For this reason The London Gazette does not apply to him"

Two questions the HD comittee and the FCO need to answer.

No1) How come the HD committee or the FCO have never come forth with an explanation
of what type of UK citizens and what type of foreign medals they were referring to in the London Gazette 1968?

No2) If the UK citizens were not veterans who are no longer in service of the crown and the foreign medals were not of the type as the Pingat Jasa Malaysia who and what status were the UK citizens, and what type of foreign medals was the Royal Proclamation in the London Gazette refering to, when the FCO released the document on 3rd. May, 1968

The reason I think this is important and I believe they can be caught out. What other type of UK citizen would require to have The Queen's permission to wear foreign medals at parades or remembrance day services at these eight example dates since WW1 other than veterans?


Victory in Europe (VE) Day ..................................................8 May 1945.

HMG new Veterans Day .........................................................27 June 2006

(VJ) Day & end of Malaya Borneo Campaigns............................15 August 1945 - 1966

WW1 Remembrance Day................................................................11 November


Army/Navy/RAF/MN Remembrance days

Battle of the Somme Day......................................................1 July

Battle of Britain day ...........................................................15 September

Battle of Trafalgar Day..........................................................21 October

Merchant Navy Day.............................................................3 September

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Post Permission to Wear?! 
email - to Don Touhig .

Dear Mr Touhig,

I am not a constituent of yours, but in accordance with Parliamentary rules, I am not making a request for assistance. This information is provided as an up dated brief on the current situation. I enclose an extract of a letter from the Honours Secretary to a member of the fight4thePJM Campaign. It is plainly obvious to me that it is intended to represent the HD Committee, the FCO, MOD and Cabinet Office as making a sincere gesture of friendship as well as protecting the British High Commissioner in Malaysia from local criticism and that of the Veterans attending during the Merderka Celebrations for the period 15 August to 9 September 2007, brazenly quoting the authority of Her Majesty the Queen, though I doubt that she is aware of what is being done in her name, while they continue to deny the UK veterans not attending the right to wear their PJMs, althought the London Gazette and JSP 761 unequivocally give the authority so to do. I believe this to be outrageous!

I enclose copy of the letter I have sent to Mr Brennan of the Cabinet Office and to Mrs Collingridge, together with an email I have sent to the Editor of The Star in Malaysia.

Yours faithfully,

David Dilley

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Dear three members of the HD committee and Tanya Collingridge FCO

denis.brennan@cabinet-office.x.gsi.gov.uk
peter.ricketts@fco.gov.uk
Bill.Jeffrey480@mod.uk
tanya.collingridge@fco.gov.uk.

CONTROVERSY OVER THE WEARING THE PINGAT JASA MALAYSIA

Numerous Malay Borneo veterans who are United Kingdom citizens including myself have received letters from Mr Dennis Brennan secretary of the HD committee cabinet office, and Tanya Collingridge Foreign Commonwealth Office informing them the London Gazette 3rd. May, 1968 does not refer to them, and neither does it refer to the Pingat Jasa Malaysia Medal.

Could Mr Brennan or Ms Collingridge kindly explain what United Kingdom citizens does the London Gazette 3rd. May, 1968 refer to, if it does not refer to todays veteran recipients of the pingat jasa malaysia, who mostly are pensioners are no longer in service of the crown?

Secondly, if the Pingat Jasa Malaysia, a 2005/6 foreign award to veterans from the Malaysian Government is not the type of medal the London Gazette 3rd. May, 1968 refered to, could you please explain what type of foreign medals was this Royal Proclamation referring to?

FOREIGN OFFICE COMMONWEALTH OFFICE
ORDERS, DECORATIONS AND MEDALS CON-
FERRED BY MEMBERS OF THE COMMON-
WEALTH OF WHICH THE QUEEN IS NOT
HEAD OF STATE, AND BY FOREIGN COUNTRIES.

The QUEEN has been graciously pleased! to approve
that Orders, Decorations and Medals conferred with
Her Majesty's permission upon United Kingdom
citizens not being servants of the Crown by the
Heads or Governments of Commonwealth countries
as defined above, or of foreign States, may in all
cases be worn by the recipients without restriction.


Yours sincerely

Malay Borneo Veteran
name & address supplied.

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Post Servant of the Crown ? 
I know we’ve all heard this one before, but I thought you might like to know.

All the disagreement between us and them about the interpretation of the London Gazette entry, prompted me to carry out a rather interesting experiment.
I asked several people, none in the Services, to read the original [below] and give me their opinion regarding the interpretation ::

“The QUEEN has been graciously pleased to approve
that Orders, Decorations and Medals conferred with
Her Majesty's permission upon United Kingdom
citizens not being servants of the Crown by the
Heads or Governments of Commonwealth countries
as defined above, or of foreign States, may in all
cases be worn by the recipients without restriction.”

Not unexpectedly, they read it with a pause inserted as shown below ::

“The QUEEN has been graciously pleased to approve
that Orders, Decorations and Medals conferred with
Her Majesty's permission upon United Kingdom
citizens - not being servants of the Crown - by the
Heads or Governments of Commonwealth countries
as defined above, or of foreign States, may in all
cases be worn by the recipients without restriction.

That is also how I read it. I ceased to be a ‘servant of the Crown’ when I resigned from the Army in 1989. I am most certainly NOT receiving any income from the Crown which I consider seriously negates their argument. The award was awarded to me in 2006. The end.

Not too surpringly – everyone agreed with my version and scoffed and even laughed out loud when they heard Whitehall’s assertion that, one way or another, I still am serving the Crown !!


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I was asked my opinion of this by Barry and this is what I said to him when I had read the 'permission'. I do not think that this has anything to do with Her Maj but is a ministerial answer to a request made by the NMBVA. Don't be fooled!
Regards
John


'I would suggest that this is a normal response from the relevant authority to a specific request for permission to wear foreign decorations during a specific celebration ie the Merdeka Celebrations in the UK.

I cannot see Her Maj being asked as this is a normal function of the ministry involved and nor can I see her saying ‘yes’ as I do not believe that such mundane matters are put before her more that they are dealt with by her secretariat and in this case possibley Janvrin. My response to such a letter would be ‘do not insult us, our demands for unrestricted permission still stands’


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UPDATE ON THE WEARING OF THE PJM

In response to a request from the HD Committee, I am pleased to inform you that The Queen has given her permission for the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal to be worn by veterans during the main independence celebrations in Malaysia. The relevant period covered by this permission is 15 August 2007 to 9 September 2007.

I am copying this letter to other interested parties, and would be grateful if you would disseminate this information further, in particular to those veterans who are travelling to Malaysia later this month.

Yours sincerely,

Tanya Collingridge


Read what it says on the tin The Queen has given her permission.............

Now if we disbelieve the wording on this statement we have to prove otherwise. If that statement is incorrect then its goodbye Tanya................

My views:- we have been so very polite (well some of you have) that all of those civil servants have turned a deaf ear to our responses, interestingly so many MPs and other Govt Departments are listening (even Gordon Brown says he is listening) so I reckon it is time to take the kid gloves off and let rip!


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Forgive me if I am wrong...(it will not be, for me, any novel experience)....but it seems that every pronouncement we have had which emanated from the HD Committee invariably used, subject to some minor semantic modification, the phrase "The Queen has given her permission".....my interpretation of this, is that the phrase is purely formulaic and does not in any way signify that Her Majesty has herself, necessarily read the pronouncement or signed the pertinent document.

I speculate that Her Majesty did NOT read or sign this pathetic 'Band-Aid'.

I am in complete agreement with John Ireland's opinion below:

Quote:
'I would suggest that this is a normal response from the relevant authority to a specific request for permission to wear foreign decorations during a specific celebration ie the Merdeka Celebrations in the UK.



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