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Iceni wrote:
And that was, what the Malaysians point of view is.


I understand that. Their point of view is fundamental. The British Government have ridden rough-shod over the Malaysian intentions and their gracious offer.

We have to try and rectify that, and that will entail discussion between us on 'the words'. I was concerned to see that we took all views into account, calmly and with due thought, in order to preempt the MoD and the HD Committee from using and abusing those same words, using them one way to suit one argument, and another to suit a second.

I believe we have won the hearts and minds campaign. We now need to stick together to finish the fight. If we do not, then we are simply playing into the hands of the villains of this piece, and the Malaysians will remain snubbed and those who served will not get their just desserts.

This matter is bigger than any one of us.

And at the end of the day my thoughts, as you know, are always with our Malaysian friends.


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BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Post Re: PJM 
George F wrote:
... but I was only one of a number of veterans who lobbied HMG. Fred Burden from NMBVA was responsible for two exellent Daily Express articles in March 2005 bringing onboard Vera Lynn and a number of other VIPs to challenge HMG. See http://www.nmbva.co.uk/ medals section.

"Permission to wear the PJM will not, however, formally be given." has me still mystified. Is it an an *anomaly* a deviation from the common rule something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified? FORMAL applies both to things prescribed by and to persons obedient to custom and may suggest stiff, restrained, or old-fashioned behavior. Does FORMAL here mean No 1 Uniform Dress as is a RESTRICTED award or does it mean wearing medals by veterans on Formal occasions like remembrance parades were Royalty are present?


George - Fred Burden did a brilliant job and we are indebted to him. But there's no getting away from what you did in those early days to fan the flames of interest in, and lobbying for, the PJM.

On your second point - I have not come across this phraseology before. Neither, I suspect, has the HD Committee or the FCO or the MoD or the Cabinet Office. My bet is on them having had to produce this form of words in order to address a unique situation. Resolution of the meaning of those words is at the heart of our case.

We have heard some suggest that the words mean "wear it if you lke" because that let's HMG off the hook (and they don't care, anyway). Then we are told that to wear the medal would cut across the wishes of the Queen which in turn implies that she has agreed that formal permission shoulde be withheld. But we also know that generally only recommendation for acceptance and wear go to the Queen. And that implies somebody else is withholding formal permission.

I find it hard to accept that the recommendation made to the Queen has been subsequently modified to the effect that some sort of permission has been withheld following her giving her consent.

So I am no further forward... but by raising it and discussing it, maybe we'll prise out an anser from somebody. It is one of the central questions I have put to my MP for onward transmission to the Minister.

Barry


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BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Post Re: Query over quote in PJM Ministerial statement 
George F wrote:
I have just thought of a good idea. ... Once we receive our PJM medals ... I forgot to add if the MOD send one of their insulting letters use this as a platform to base your letter on, as well as inclosing the quote from the Ministerial statement.


I'll certainly be happy to ask my solicitor to do that, George.

And you are right to emphasise the words "when we receive" because the covering letter will be very revealing ias we saw in the example you sent to us reagarding the Russian medal: http://www.fight4thePJM.org/documents/MOD_order_not_to_wear_medal.jpg

PLEASE NOTE: I have not yet made the document available because I have to check there is not a personal address on it .... watch this space ...

OK ... it's there now and the link should work.


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BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Post The RULES. 
Please correct me if I am wrong but who gave the MOD or the FCO authority to change or alter the 'Rules governing the acceptance and wearing of foreign Orders, Decorations, and Medals by Citizens of the United Kingdom and her overseas territories'.
By failing to comply with these rules the MOD and FCO are acting unlawfully towards Citizens of the United Kingdom (us veterans) and discourteously to Her Majesty the Queen.
The rules of engagement do not permit the MOD or FCO to write and tell anyone that they can or cannot wear a foreign award. By doing so they are abusing what power they seem to think they have.
As all troops who fought in the areas covered by the PJM did so under the Commonwealth banner then this discrimination should also be of interest to the Commonwealth Solicitor General, or whoever is the administrative head of the Commonwealth at the present time.
It is high time the person responsible for this 'permission is not granted to wear formally' is identified and those who have a duty to protect the honour and respect of Her Royal Majesty do their job properly and throw out both the non-wearing rule and the eejit who made it.
Her Majesty the Queen has graciously been pleased to approve the recommendation excepting the two long standing rules governing the accepting and wearing of foreign awards. Done and dusted - HM the Queen has given authority for the PJM to be accepted and worn. Notice 'THEY' have also included in this (the Commonwealth) because the PJM is issued to Commonwealth troops yet the rules do not mention 'The Commonwealth' anywhere.
Those who impose rules are also Citizens who must abide by them and interpret them properly. Get your axles into gear and start treating our veterans and the next of kin of veterans with the respect and humanity they deserve. They did nothing to warrant such disgraceful treatment.

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"Permission to wear the PJM will not, however, formally be given"? It could not be the Queen otherwise she would be contradicting herself. So who was the jerk who wrote it?


Presumably, George & McDangle...some member of the HDC who is an ardent devotee of the Law of Logical Argument: Which states...

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about."


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...................'Jock'
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'Jock' Fenton wrote:
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"Permission to wear the PJM will not, however, formally be given"? It could not be the Queen otherwise she would be contradicting herself. So who was the jerk who wrote it?


Presumably, George & McDangle...some member of the HDC who is an ardent devotee of the Law of Logical Argument: Which states...

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about."


Quite true Jock (Gretna 3 Dundee 0 - watch the final on 13th. May against Jambos)

I have just had a thought. What if everyone in the UK on this site, on a given day at a given time, went to their local police station and made a complaint of discrimination under the Race Relations Act against a certain politician could we be sued or encarcerated, perhaps in a nice soft warm jail that the UK is famous for.

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George F wrote:


John, Have you ever seen *SERVICE* incribed on a General Service Medal ?
GEORGE F


As it happens. Yes. Mine has the word "Service" on it.




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George F wrote:
You have already told us that before John, but you refuse to accept all British GSM's do not have *service* on them do they? When I put up this evidence you just want to ignore it?


I have never ever, discussed the earlier GSMs. I don' have one.

I have however, discussed the later GSMs.

I have the evidence, as you call it.


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It was good to clear up the question as to what these medals are called, which have what words etc.

But most importantly it was great to read about the support we have from our Malaysian friends.

Hope it's OK - I've now closed this thread and started a new one on the subject of 'service' and 'commemorative'.

It is at http://www.fight4thepjm.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1105#1105

Barry


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BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Post COMMEMORATIVE. 
I am told, not by an expert mind you, that the Malaysians, or some of them anyway, translate the Pingat Jasa Malaysia as the Honour Medal Malaysia. If this is the case then the Commemorative that they(Malaysians) use is their translation of Honour, but the smart lick spittles amongst our brilliant parliamentarians have cottoned on to this and used the word Commemorative in the terms of a medal, to mean to 'represent a certain event and not given for service' ie. hence the saying 'its only a commemorative award and not to be worn'.
Use and misuse of words to suit themselves, or moving the goalposts, or attacking opponents or pathalogical liars all just mean that they think they can do what they like to us, but I am having none of it.
The circumstances in which the PJM is awarded means it was won and earned and no matter how many lies or word twisting they get themselves into it was earned and in some cases it was earned with the supreme sacrifice for Queen and Country and THIS THEY CANNOT CHANGE no matter how hard they try. They want to hang their heads with shame, and if there are any amongst them with pride and integrity then they should stand up and be counted and support our just cause.

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Post Re: COMMEMORATIVE. 
mcdangle wrote:
Use and misuse of words to suit themselves, or moving the goalposts, or attacking opponents or pathalogical liars all just mean that they think they can do what they like to us, but I am having none of it.


Well said, mcdangle.

Please see my post at
http://www.fight4thepjm.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1107&sid=c6193e8161bff05aca39a3370a0e4eba#1107

where I say something similar but take a long time doing so!


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BarryF, who fought for the Right to Wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia
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Post I just can't believe it... 
Gee George...

Now that I have read Mr Brennan's explanation, maybe we should send him a nice letter of apology, to let him know that we are all satisfied, that everything which can be done by the HD Committee, has been done?

Or do you have an alternative plan in mind?????


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Post I just can't believe it 
Does Brennan actually get paid to write crap like that? I am at a loss for words. His letter should be put of the front page of the Daily Mirror so that he can be ridiculed.

Hamish

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It is a pity we haven't got the clout to make these people headline news.

You know all this K-rap about HM graciously allowing this etc etc is a load of Cobblers, we all know that the HD recommends these instructions to HMQ so why try to make it look as if it is her hand that has given the permission.

I really can understand why revolutions take place in these countries when archaic rules are laid down on the statute books. I mean look at the bullsh!t that goes on at the Queens Speech, not her writings, men in stockings with a black rod and human beings dressing up in stoats clothing, I mean what the F*^$ are we all about these days.

We have a foreign government wanting to personally thank 35000 people for doing that country a favour 40-50 years ago and we have to poke 'our' oar in and upset just about everyone on planet Earth, but as these Tossers are from Planet Zarb you can understand their ineptitude. The sooner these tw@ts get out of kindergarten the better, I hope you are looking in Dennis, Adam, Ian and go because I really mean you lot! Evil or Very Mad


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What 'ruling' is he talking about. The rules submitted by Jack 'the lad' Straw state there are two points in regards to foreign awards and that is Restricted Wear or Unrestricted Wear. The rule which states that 'permission will not be granted to wear the PJM formally' just does not exist.

If you read this Mr. Brennan then rules, if you wish to quote them should exist and be lawful rules and it is no use quoting rubbish and tripe that is accepted in your asylum because this out here is the real world. We are the people who had to go out and fight for you all these years ago and we expect to be treated fairly and justly, so get a grip and rescind this stupid non-wearing order.

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